I found an online dictionary. But thank you none-the-less. --Kikimora

Béoþ hál!Adiht

I couldn't get James on the English wiki, so I took it here, and will make this my main log-in name for the Anglo-Saxon wikipedia. Feel free to contact me about Old English, grammar, etc. Have fun!

Wilcume, James. Ic eom for þancful. --Saforrest 12:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Keyboard LayoutAdiht

I'm working on an Anglo-Saxon keyboard layout, so we can enter text using that. Any ideas on what the layout should be? Let me know. We have æ, þ, and ð to placre, and q, j, k to replace, as well as accented characters to use.

You mean that when you type q, j, or k in a form, you would get other Anglo-Saxon characters? How would you do that through wikipedia? --Saforrest 18:37, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
It's essentially a new keyboard locale, taking the place of one already on the computer, so that you can type in OE using your own keyboard. I'm going through the letter frequencies right now, and j, k, v can go away. Q and z are used, but not very much (foreign names/words). The big question is placement of þ, ð, and æ. I've already figured to keep the other characters (such as []-=!@#$%^&*( and the like) in the same place, no need to change those, but the accent character plus a vowel will give the accented equivalent, plus I'll stick the euro, pound, and yen symbols in there. --James 22:14, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'm not a wikipedia superviser or anything, but I do know a potential solution. You can use the Icelandic keyboard layout, where the Ð symbol is on the right bracket key (]), the Æ symbol is on the semicolon key, and the Þ symbol is on the forward slash key (/). To make a macron, you press the key with the quotation marks on it, and then type the vowel. If you have Windows XP, you have to go to the Control Panel, then Language settings, then click "add other languages," then under the language tab click details, then click the "Add" button and click Icelandic. You can't use the macron with the Asc symbol, but for the other vowels you can. -- Geofriþ, 13:26, 23 Aug 2005 (EST)

Gewilnode TrametasAdiht

Ic wille þás trametas: Foresittend, Crístemæsse, Éaster, Déra wudu, and Déprobane. Sume sind styccu, ac ic wille sumne tó wyrcenne þae'rmid.

wucedæg vs. wuces dægAdiht

Hi James. I trust your knowledge of Old English, but mightn't wucedæg be interpreted as 'weekday'? --Saforrest 16:12, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yep. There's wucdæg, wucedæg, or wicudæg. What sense were you going for? --James 18:16, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I was concerned with distinguishing "day of week" from "weekday" (the latter term excludes the weekend). But that notion may not exist in Old English, so I probably shouldn't be concerned about it. --Saforrest 16:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What were you intending, by the way, with Template:Kingdom? I'm thinking most of the template names in this wikipedia should be Old English names. I attempted this with Template:Stycce. --Saforrest 16:25, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I liked the Stycce as stub...if you can change "Kingdom", go for it. I was simply trying to get it up quickly, while getting the ostrich article up. I wanted to make it easier to transfer over other animal articles. I'd like to get as many articles in OE as we can, so I was trying to lay some groundwork for that. By the way, I appreciate your and everyone else's contributions to this wiki. I hope everyone doesn't mind that I correct spelling/grammar so often... :)

    ---Actually, all the template names should be in OE.  We just have to figure out what those names should be.

Hi again, James. I took the liberty of moving your talk page from User talk:JamesR1701 to here, I hope you don't mind.

--not at all. Though I'll probably still use both names, but this one moreso than the other.

With regards to changing þære wucedæg to se wucedæg: this makes sense to me from all other languages I know. But Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer states:

When a noun in the genitive, with the definite article, precedes another noun on which it depends, and which would also have an article if it stood alone, only the article in the genitive is used: æt þæs hálgan byrgenne 'at the saint's tomb'; contrast to tó þæm hálgan bodige 'to the holy body'. --Saforrest 17:33, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

--if it's connected, then "se wucedæg" but if not, then "in þære wuce dæge" makes sense. Depends on if you want to say "weekday" instead of "day of the week."

Thanks, makes sense to me. --Saforrest 18:42, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi James. Thanks for all your grammatical and spelling corrections. :) When changing the name of an article, for example from Hrodulf readnosa hrandeor to Hrodulf se réadnosoda hrándéor, you should use Move this article rather than blanking the original page and moving the content via the clipboard.

The reason is that Move has the advantage of preserving the edit history of the original article, and automatically moving along the Talk page as well. It also automatically creates a redirect from the original article to the new one. --Saforrest 10:27, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

With regards to your question about undoing your change: I wouldn't worry about it.
If you really want to, you could revert Hrodulf readnosa hrandeor to its previous content (making sure to include any changes made to to Hrodulf se réadnosoda hrándéor since the move), delete Hrodulf se réadnosoda hrándéor (you should be allowed to do this yourself since you're an administrator), and then use Move this page to move it.
But as I said, for a page with only a few previous edits in its revision history, it's probably not worth it. --Saforrest 04:23, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi again. I noticed there were two copies of the 'Community Portal' page lurking about, at Wikipedia:Gemae'nscipe Ingang and Gemae'nscipe Ingang.

The former is where I think it should be, since it's 'meta-information' about the encyclopaedic process, not an article unto itself. Only the latter, however, contained your revision about editing Crístemæsse.

I've added this revision to Wikipedia:Gemae'nscipe Ingang, set up both Gemae'nscipe Ingang and Wikipedia:Community Portal to redirect there, and amended the link in the main page. Everything should be fine, but you might want to take a look and make sure nonetheless. --Saforrest 11:40, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi James, I've given administrator access to this account, but not to JamesR1701. I don't think it's appropriate to have two accounts with sysop access, and "James" seemed to be your main account. Is there any reason you would need more than one account like this?

There are instructions on how to use your administrator powers in the administrators' how-to guide on the English Wikipedia. If you have any problems, let me know on my talk page at en, or leave a note on m:Requests for permissions. Good luck with the new wiki.

Angela 20:58, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Angela! I was wondering...I just edited the From Wikipedia message, and it doesn't seem to appear at the tops of pages anymore. Did I already break it? :) --James 23:28, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
No, you didn't break it. :) You just need to tweak the CSS as suggested at MediaWiki talk:Monobook.css. Angela 01:03, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Tweaked, yet the message still doesn't show. Do I need to remove the small tags? Or is something else missing? --James 09:24, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It shows for me ok. Have you tried clearing your cache? Angela 17:37, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's fine now. Thanks! --James 18:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Maybe we should have a page somewhere in the Wikipedia: namespace where we can post if we want to figure out how to say something in OE.

On that topic, what should the OE be for "science"? I know NASC uses gecyndwita for scientist, but then "science" would be gecynd, which is our word for "category".

I suggest witanscip by analogy with German Wissenschaft. It's an equivalent thing in almost every other Germanic language (Norwegian, Swedish, Danish, Dutch, East Low German, Luxembourgish). Seem reasonable? --Saforrest 10:48, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I have found a few words on that topic. Check out Hú secge ic and we can make that our page for that. --James 15:51, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Okay, thanks for writing that. FYI, I've moved Hú secge ic to Wikipedia:Hú secge ic because it is (debatably, I admit) meta-content (i.e. text about writing articles, not an article itself). --Saforrest 18:32, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi James, it's not something wrong with your computer. The page is just cached. This happens all the time with the mediawiki and template namespaces. You just need to reload the page to see it. This is often done using Ctrl and F5, but I can't say if that will work for you since I don't know which browser you are using. The en:Wikipedia:Clear your cache page will explain it better. Angela (en) 18:53, 18 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hi James. When you're adding or writing meta-content, such as Edit Conflicts, could you put it under the Wikipedia namespace, e.g. Wikipedia:Edit conflicts?

I think it's a good idea to distinguish between content and metacontent, particularly when a lot of our meta-content is going to be in Modern English. As well, in my skin (Cologne Blue), the background of pages under the 'Wikipedia' namespace is a different colour than normal pages, providing a visual clue that this is different data.

I'm not sure where you can do this, but in the settings somewhere it should be possible to make articles of the form Wikipedia:Article_name forward to Wicipae'dia:Article_name. This is what is done in, for example, the Esperanto wikipedia, where eo:Wikipedia:Bonvenon_al_la_Vikipedio is magically converted to eo:Vikipedio:Bonvenon_al_la_Vikipedio. --Saforrest 19:43, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Englisc geþéode oþþe Englisce geþéodeAdiht

Hi James, I noticed your change to Template:English, adding the e to Englisc. Should Englisc be declined strong or weak in Níwe Englisc geþéode? --Saforrest 03:44, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

When we say "Níwe Englisc," we're talking about the language "New English," but when we say "þæt níwe Englisce geþéode," it's an adjective describing geþéode, instead of a noun in its own right. --James 10:29, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Right. Since geþéode is a neuter noun, we have the choice of englisce geþéode (with the adjective englisc declined weak) or englisc geþéode (with englisc declined strong). I was wondering which should be used for the article title; I'm guessing from your response that it's the latter.
Maybe this would be a good thing to say in the policies about article naming. --Saforrest 15:25, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I noticed you redirected Englisce geþéode to Englisc geþéode. So, which is it to be? Does the adjective applied to geþéode take an e or doesn't it? I'm happy to go with whatever you decide, but in any case we should be consistent. --Saforrest 17:55, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I need to create some kind of policy page on this. OK, When naming an article, use the name without "se, séo, þæt" - so, when creating a language article, the language is an adjective describing the noun "geþéode," so the -isc adjective does not have an ending. So, the article name would be "Russic geþéode" not "Russisce geþéode" (because (a) it's not preceded by 'þæt', and (b) it's neuter). Within the article, though, if you say "the Russian language" it would be "þæt Russisce geþéode." Does that answer the question?

Article Names: Russic/Englisc/Þéodisc/etc. geþéode Within Articles: þæt x-isce geþéode is/wæs, etc.

  --James 18:18, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
That works for me. I'll amend the various languages pages I renamed, then. :) --Saforrest 18:29, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Argh, I didn't realize that the edit history of the pages I'd moved had been obliterated. Could you move all the languages in Category:Geþéode to their correct places?? Sorry about that. --Saforrest 18:37, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I see you've made these changes; thanks! Saforrest 04:06, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

OE charactersAdiht

Apologies for the onslaught of messages. The current system here uses the usual OE character set but substitutes accents for overbars in á, é, é, etc. It also uses the accented characters Ǽ and ǽ.

These last two (Ǽ and ǽ) belong to the Unicode Latin Extended-B character set. These aren't as well supported by browsers as the others, but any system that supports displaying them will probably also support displaying Ā, Ē, Ī, Ō, Ū, ā, ē, ī, ō, ū (from Latin Extended-A) and Ǣ, ǣ, Ȳ, and ȳ (also from Latin Extended-B). See [1] if you're interested.

If we're assuming people can read Ǽ and ǽ, we might as well assume they can read the rest of the ones I mentioned. So why don't we go all the way and use the characters with the overbars, since they're more faithful to the usual Old English spelling? --Saforrest 23:26, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've seen accent marks mostly, not the macrons ("overbars"), especially since I couldn't find æ with a macron when writing in OE. That's why it's macrons here. --James 10:29, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I've thought some more about this, and I think it's much better to stick with accents for now. UTF-8 systems do not handle accented AE ligature symbols well, e.g. try linking to a page with an ae' in the title from English wikipedia, even specifying the character with an entity reference. It doesn't work; I wonder how this can be fixed? I've done it in a couple cases by creating a redirect using an unaccented ash, and linking the English page to that.
If we use the accented characters as we do now, the only characters that're troublesome are AE' and ae'. If we were to use the macron characters, which unlike the accented characters are not in Latin-1, we would be opening a much bigger can of worms. --Saforrest 13:50, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not that I've actually been editing/adding articles (unfortunately I've been too busy recently), but here's my opinion if it's worth anything: Considering that the characters were never marked in 'real' old english, why mark them here then? As far as I can tell, they're just a tool to learn the language but I think anyone reading (or writing) Wikipedia in old english must already know it pretty well. If it's that important to know the long vowels in a word I'm sure there're other ways to find out (maybe you could even start a Wiktionary or something). -- 19:18, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

(BTW, I'm QVanillaQ on the english Wikipedia) -- 19:22, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Long vowels weren't marked in original texts, but most modern versions of texts do mark them, and whether a vowel was long or short does make a difference in the meaning of a sentence (verb tense, noun differences, etc.). And a wiktionary...maybe after we get about 500 articles (hint, hint). Feel free to contribute anytime...that's what we're here for. --James 16:35, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Sure they makes words mean different things, like modern english read (reed) and read (red) but we don't have to mark those differences in modern english right? I'm just saying if they didn't need them in writing, why do we? Context usually takes care of it. Just something to think about anyway, in the name of simplification. -- 01:04, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Pronunciation of GAdiht

You seem to know an awful lot about OE so I wanted to ask you a question about spoken OE. Do you know if there are any rules wether the letter G is pronounced like a Greek Gamma or like an Irish Yogh in certain combinations? When I want to speak in OE it's always a guess how the G is pronounced, but maybe there's a system? Harðor 15:48, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not a problem. The combinationgs 'ge-' and 'gi-' are pronounced 'ye-' and 'yi-', but 'ga,' 'go,' and 'gu' are all with a hard g sound. In verbs, such as 'gán,' the 'g' stays hard even when in the 'gae'st' or 'gae'þ' forms. Hard 'g' also remains in words like 'gyden' (goddess). The problem is when people spell 'ie' like 'y,' then you have to guess. That's why this wiki keeps a consistent spelling. Also, the 'g' stays hard in umlauted words (gós to gés). So:

  like 'y' in 'ge' and 'gi'
  like 'g' in 'ga', 'go', 'gu'
  between a's, o's, and u's like German 'ach' (dagas, dogor, duguþ)

That does give an interesting change between 'dæg,' 'dæges,' and 'dagas' (all the same word!). Does this help?

 --James 23:17, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes, thank you very much. But what if the g is at the and of a word? And the æ, does it count as an a or e or even different? And with a Y, if a word spelled with Y is known not to be correctly spelled with ie, what sound does it have?

By the way, wouldn't it be a good idea to introduce the letter Yogh Z for DJ/Y sounds? I think this will be the same discussion as wether we should use macrons, but I think it would be better. I think we should as much as possible stick to the traditional spelling, so maybe we could even involve the Wynn? :Þ

Anyway, thanks so far, this has already proved to be of great help. Harðor 16:04, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Anytime I can help, man :) I wouldn't mind involving yogh and wynn, but most manuscripts simply use 'w' to avoid confusion with 'p' and I have no idea where yogh is in the normal font we use here.
G at the end of a word depends. Dæg has the 'y' sound, 'dog' has the 'ach' sound (like German 'doch'), 'eg' and 'ig' are 'ej' and 'ij', 'ug' is 'uch' as in German 'Buch'. Same back/front vowel alternations here. After/before a, o, u, it's a hard sound, and after/before e, i it's a soft sound (y). --James 14:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Yogh is in the Unicode Latin Extended-B character set; you can see the full listing here (as a PDF). Its code is 01B7, and can be expressed in HTML and wiki as Ʒ. If your browser can read it, it should appear here: Ʒ.
That said, my own opinion is that it's better for us to go with the convention for most OE printed material, which is to use thorn, eth, and ash, but not wynn or yogh. Cheers, Saforrest 18:25, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Er, sorry, I misread the documentation. Here's the breakdown of the characters:
Uppercase yogh - 021C - Ȝ
Lowercase yogh - 021D - ȝ
Uppercase wynn - 01F7 - Ƿ
Lowercase wynn - 01BF - ƿ
Runic character wunjo wynn - 16B9 - ᚹ
--Saforrest 06:02, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Also, this list includes all unicode characters involved in OE and similar languages. It was created to go with the Junicode font (a special unicode font for OE etc) but can also be used as an unicode reference chart, with the added benefit that it is HTML so you can easy copy and paste characters and look in the source for other codes. Harðor Holtakarl Vilhjálmusson 06:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wynn and yogh and runes do not display properly on my Windows 98.

In Common Germanic "g" was pronounced everywhere as the "g" fricative, like German "ch" in "ach" but voiced. In OE, it changed to "y" or "w" or the plosive or "dzh" according to situation. But when writing came to OE England, it would ave been pronounced as "g" stop or "g2 fricative, ese it would not have been spelt as "g". The changes to "y" and "w" and "dzh" happened after that. When doubled, "gg" became double-plosive, and they spelt it "cg" to say "plosive like "c" and voiced like "g"". But later back "cg" was spelt "gg" as in "frogga" for earlier "frocga", and the spelling "cg" was reserved for "dzh". Anthony Appleyard 23:07, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Hi James. I think rímcræft is maybe a better name for 'arithmetic' or 'number theory' (which were once synonyms in English) than mathematics as a whole. There are a lot of branches of mathematics that have little or nothing to do with numbers themselves.

Other ideas:

  • Just adapting the Greek word literally, maþematic,
  • Using a cognate of the Icelandic Stærðfræði.
  • Using a cognate of Wiskunde, which is what mathematics is called in Dutch and in Frisian, which are incidentally the closest non-British cousins of Englisc.

What do you think? --Saforrest 15:54, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The Dutch word Wiksunde literaly means "The art of that which is sure (archaic Dutch: gewis, OE gewisslic)", so perhaps a good name would be Gewissencræft or Wisscræft. Harðor 23:16, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Just adapting the Greek word literally, maþematic,
In Ancient Greek "th", the "t" and the "h" were pronounced separately. Ditto with "ph" and "ch". Anthony Appleyard 22:59, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm looking in on this, and there's a steorwiglere for mathemetician; so, maybe rímwiglungcræft? What does the Icelandic word mean? Maybe a cross translation from that? --James 23:41, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

George W. BushAdiht

Hi James, see my comments on Talk:George W. Bush about protecting the page. If you'd rather not unprotect it, could you fix the link to English wikipedia? There's a typo which means it currently goes to Georeg W. Bush. --Saforrest 17:50, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for unprotecting the page. With regards to your comments about current political figures: I agree there's a potential for problem, but on Wikipedia in general there quite a high threshold of vandalism that has to occur before protection is used. See en:Wikipedia:Protection policy.
For example, if you look at Bush's page on the wikipedias in other languages (French, German, Italian, Spanish, Welsh), you'll see none of them are protected. I would be surprised if there had been no vandalism attempts against Bush's page on any of these wikipedias, but apparently the problem is not so severe as to require protection. Blair's page isn't even protected on English wikipedia. --Saforrest 18:30, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

By the way, in answer to your question on Harðor's talk page, the vandal added 'IQ: 20' to the info box on Bush. I still think the page should stay unprotected, unless the instances of vandalism really become a problem. --Saforrest 21:37, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Just wondering what "IQ" would be in old english... Something like "brain-strength"? =P

Date formatAdiht

I'm wondering which of Géolmónaþ 11 or 11 Géolmónaþ is closer to the spirit of the original Old English text. Does the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle give any kind of precedent on this? My instinct is to prefer the latter, but I'm not sure why. It's closer to current British usage (e.g. 11 December versus December 11) and further from my own.

By the way, as an administrator, can you edit the LocalSettings.php file (described in meta:Help:Variable) so that, for example, {{CURRENTMONTHNAME}} returns the correct Old English month name? --Saforrest 19:59, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll see what I can do about changing the month and day names. But when this wiki was set up, Tim didn't want do do any special interface customizations, nor install the LanguageAng.php file (which has the day and month names). --James 21:17, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why was that (that this 'Tim' person didn't want to do this)? Is the discussion you had accessible anywhere?
I suppose I can see a rationale for some of this: as there are no native OE speakers, one could argue that translating all the meta-data into OE could just be a hindrance for contributors. I don't buy this line of reasoning myself, as one probably ought not contribute to an encyclopædia in a dead language if one can't at least read it. The day and month names, however, are not metadata, so it would be nice to at least translate those.
In any case, if any part of the rationale for not customising the interface was that the effort wasn't justifiable for a encyclopædia which probably wouldn't get anywhere, I think the impressive growth of this encyclopædia in the last few weeks has demonstrated that fear was unfounded. --Saforrest 21:32, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Hi James. Do you have any preference or opinion on which of Géolmónaþ 11 or 11 Géolmónaþ should be used in Englisc articles? I have a weak preference for the latter. --Saforrest 07:29, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Tracking progressAdiht

Hello, James,

I think it was you who asked about it on the list. You should find this useful after ang has been added to it (may need to request it): http://ang.wikipedia.org/wikistats/EO/Sitemap.htm

Regarding localization month names, etc.: I believe our developers are working on a patch that will allow them to be localized on-line. But I'm not aware of the state of progress. A-giâu

See [2] for the same stats page in modern English. --Saforrest 00:15, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Hi James

I fixed the logo.

I uploaded the new version as wikip.png so you can find it at Image:Wikip.png ; you'll have to update it yourself and should probably protect it, also if you want you can translate the description to Englisc.

Best, Node ue 23:33, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Could you delete User:Nickshnaka and User talk:Nickshnaks - I made a typo when creating the account :) Nickshanks 00:57, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Dealing with foreign names or phrasesAdiht

Hi James. One question we have to settle is how much foreign names should be translated or have their spelling adapted into English.

For any foreign word, name, or phrase, we can:

  • Leave it in the original language, provided it's written in Latin script
  • Adapt it to Old English spelling, but leave it otherwise untranslated (e.g. replace K with C, th with þ, etc.)
  • Translate it entirely (e.g. France -> Francríce, New York -> Níwe Eforwic)

I think it would be a mistake to pick only one of these approaches and apply it to everything. However, it would be a good idea to establish some basic rules, perhaps for names of cities, countries, and people. --Saforrest 18:47, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

hmm. If we have an Old English name for it already, such as Edgar, Elizabeth, York, etc., I see no problem with translating it into OE, and with Germanic/Saxon names in general (New Zealand -> Níwe Sae'land, Níwe Hamtúnscír, etc.). Adapting spelling to OE spelling with names...no problem. I'm just wondering if that would be a good idea with people like John Kerry, etc. (Would you understand Iohannes Cae'rrig as being about John Kerry?). Let's discuss this one a bit further before setting down a policy, so we know what we're getting into by setting such a policy. Can we think of situations where this will be desireable/undesireable? --James 18:18, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
If it already ends in -a or -e, we can simply add the normal endings to it (Australia, wé gae'þ in Australian, wé sind in Australian, etc.) and assume it as a masculine (Asia, America, male names) or feminine noun (if it's a female name, Simone, etc.). Can you think of any examples? --James 20:26, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I would prefer not to apply that level of translation (e.g. Iohannes Cae'rrig for John Kerry). This isn't done in, for example, the German wikipedia for English names (there he is 'John Kerry', not 'Johann Kerry').
However, there might be a few possible exceptions to this. Historically, names of nobles and kings tended to get translated a lot, e.g. Henry of Navarre, William of Orange, Czar Nicolas. By the beginning of the twentieth century, this was done a bit less less (Kaiser Wilhelm, Franz Ferdinand). The rule for Modern English is "what is this person usually called in English?", a yardstick we unfortunately don't have for Old English after 1100 or so.
I have no objection to using standard OE case inflections on names, and I think this is consistent with the way OE writers treated Latin names. --Saforrest 21:11, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Since I've been living in Germany, I've noticed that words, such as Fallujah, Yasser Arafat, etc. are transliterated from their English pronunciation. Would "Fálucga" and "Geasser Arafat" be understandable? --James 02:29, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, I could see an argument for that. It's also done somewhat in French, e.g. 'Fallouja' for Fallujah. What should be done with sounds that don't exist in OE, though? --Saforrest 21:33, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Transliterated from english? Aren't "Fallujah" and "Yasser Arafat" arabic names, anyhow? P.S. I requote myself from the "Lox" talk page:
James' entry: "and for proper names in general, would you find it better to leave spelling alone, or change the 'th' to þ/ð as required, and j->i? --James 19:44, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC) "
My response: "I'm not a writer on these pages, but I guess if proper names should be transcribed PROPERLY, there's a need for quite an advanced system for historical pronunciation, sound shifts, etymology etc, so I guess a small þ/ð, j->i change is purely cosmetical, anyway... I would say that ordinary proper names, (at least written in the latin alphabet) wouldn't need to be transcribed, when there is a general international consensus."
Retrieved from "http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lox"


I see you've added a new template for landboxes at Swéoland. I actually prefer the system that Harðor introduced for Englaland: instead of a single template with parameters, you have a collection of templates with a common prefix.

The advantage with this approach is that you can create templates even for information which isn't always available. If you know of some way, using a single template, to suppress the appearance of a row of information about a country when that template variable isn't defined, that would be great.

Until then, I think a collection of associated templates, such as Landbox_*, are the way to go. --Saforrest 21:38, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cool. If you want to use that, then let's go for it. I think the only way to suppress info in the one-size-fits-all template is to not include that information in the page referring to it. So, if on Swéoland we did not want to see the population, simply do not include it in that page, but leave it in the template. I think that'll work. --James 22:53, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Unfortunately I don't think it works like that; it would be nice if it did. Instead if you leave out a template variable foo it appears on the page as a red link of the form {{Template:foo}}. I wonder if there is a way around it that I don't know, since I would've expected someone on the English wikipedia to have complained about it by now. --Saforrest 01:30, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Well, darn. OK...let's simply use the Englaland template until the box gets fixed on en:, then we can switch later when it's fixed. What info is unavailable for a country? --James 06:52, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
What I mean is that some stuff just isn't appropriate everywhere. For example, a lot of countries have royal anthems, so it makes sense to have a special Landbox entry for a royal anthem. But most countries don't have royal anthems, and it's not particularly useful to have an entry like "Royal anthem: none". --Saforrest 13:50, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Nama þae'm Englisce geþéode in óðrum wísdómbócumAdiht

So far we've been using Englisc as the name of Old English everywhere, and I think on this wiki that makes sense.

However, I think that in cases where this name is visible in alternate-language wikipedias, or anyplace where someone who doesn't know what Anglo-Saxon is might see it, that the name should appear as Ealdenglisc or Eald Englisc (I prefer the former), or possibly Engleseaxisc.

My rationale for this is that I think it would be confusing to people to see both "English" and "Englisc" in interwiki links. Currently it appears as 'Anglo-Saxon', but to follow convention we should eventually convert it to a name for the language in the language. --Saforrest 13:50, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's perfectly fine. Makes perfect sense. --James 17:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

G mid 'dot'Adiht

What are your opinions on using Ġ and ġ (i.e. with dot over it) instead of the usual G, to indicate the y pronunciation? I could live without it, as the pronunciation can be inferred. --Saforrest 14:13, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm fine with that, so long as we do the same for c with a dot. There are general pronunciation rules, but using these marks can help people with pronunciation who are new to the language. We already distinguish þ and ð, when OE used them interchangeably, so I can't see why not. --James 16:11, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Longevity and credibilityAdiht

Very intrigued to find the A-S Wikipedia exists!...I don't understand,speak,or write it well enough to contribute,though I am intrigued by certain things more resonant of Norwegian,which I do speak,than modern English.(The lack of special characters in my text browser also inhibits my working on articles).Doesn't mean I can't opine about it,for example I feel that "Anglo-Saxon" should refer to a slightly earlier era than "Old English" while others see them as synonyms.

However,in the context of my work on supercentenarians,I was noting the Mathusal article apparently makes no caveat about his age being a biblical claim rather than a scientifically proven one.Are you taking the viewpoint of faith and knowledge as they existed in the days of the Heptarchy,or are modern standards of longevity documentation and articles about the likes of Jeanne Calment of interest?--Louis Epstein/ 21:31, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't have the article fully edited yet. Sorry. --James 23:45, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Austria and GermanyAdiht

Your proposed translations here might need further consideration. To take them in turn:

- "Éasternríke". The adjective meaning "eastern" ought to be "easterne" or "eastan". Existing compounds seem to be formed from the substantive "east", hence "éastland", "éasthealf", "éastseaxe". The term "eastríce" in fact already exists, with the meanings "eastern kingdom, the East" and (in Clark Hall's dict.) "East Anglia". My own view is that we should either (a) go with "éastríce" (and accept the ambiguity - sometimes even place names have multiple meanings, e.g. Georgia), or (b) use "éastanríce". A third possibility would be to use "Austria".

Done. Éastríce sounds a bit better anyhow. Thanks! --James 14:25, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

- "Þéodiscland". Again the Anglo-Saxons themselves seem to have preferred to form derivatives using the noun, "Þéodcyning", "Þéodfruma", etc. "Þéodland" is already a word, but means "country" or "the Continent" (which I take to mean "mainland Europe"). I am doubtful that we want to add an extra meaning there. On the other hand, "Þéodisc" means "Gentile" (as an adjective) or "language" (as a noun). "Þéodiscland" therefore doesn't make a lot of sense. So then I had the idea that we should call Germany "Greater Saxony" ("Greatseaxland") (or "Great country", "GreatÞéodland"), which is possible, although "Seaxland" means England (but we will probably use it to mean "Saxony" as well, unless Saxony becomes "Aldseaxland"). As you can see I am very unsure what the solution is here, but it's something that needs to be considered. Rjp08773 18:33, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Let's open this up to some more opinions. I went Þéodiscland since it is essentially a complete translation of Deutschland. If anyone has some ideas about this, perhaps what it was called back then (but that opens itself up to other meanings than we may want as well). --James 14:25, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I understand your argument here and you may be right. I'll go with your suggestion unless anyone comes up with something better. I'm not sure if a name for Germany (rather than the individual provinces) as a whole existed in those days, without resorting to Latin Germania. Rjp08773 18:20, 2 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Language namesAdiht

Hi James. Should Neðerlendisc be Niðerlendisc? I'm not sure about Noren as a name for Norwegian. How about Norðwegisc? Rjp08773 22:16, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

You're right. Niðerlendisc is more correct. There is no adverb neðer in Old English. As for Norwegian, there's either Norren or Noren (The country is Norweg). We could do Norwegisc and leave Noren/Norren for Norse (as a collection of all Scandinavians, but how would they feel about that?). --James 14:21, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I was going to suggest Norðwegisc for Norwegian, and Norðisc for Norse, for these reasons. Our word Norwegian wasn't used until modern times (later than 1500) but neither was our word Norse. In Old English, Vikings were often regarded indiscriminately, not as Norwegians, but as Danes - Dene and Denisc meant Northmen/Danes/Vikings and Danish/Norse. I think that for greater clarity, we should distinguish Norwegian from Norse, and Norðwegisc is a direct translation of the German. If we want a separate word for Norse, I think Norðisc because (1) our word Norse comes from Dutch Noorsch, but an earlier form of the Dutch word was Noord(i)sch, (2) the Scandinavian use of Norsk involves dropping the d of nord: the Scandinavians have words like (in Swedish at least) norr, but in Old English, the ð of Norð isn't dropped. Similarly, the modern Norwegian word for Norway is Norge, not Nordge (and we have Norway not Northway in modern English), but in Old English, the term was Norðweg, retaining the ð).

However, after I had finished writing the above, I discovered that Norren was used to mean Norwegian in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle circa 1100 - that is probably where you found it. So, although very late, this is obviously a very good argument in favour of your use of Norren. You also cite Norweg as the OE name for Norway, but Clark Hall and Sweet both give the form Norðweg - it's possible both were used, but the dictionary form should be regarded as better unless we have a good reason otherwise. Rjp08773 18:20, 2 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

A tentative proposal: I would still advocate a Norse/Norwegian distinction, because the language closest to Old Norse is Icelandic, not Norwegian, while the dominant written form of Norwegian (Bokmaal, originally called Dano-Norwegian) is derived from Danish rather than from Old Norwegian anyway. What would you think about: Norren = Norse or Norn Norðwegisc = Norwegian Norðisc = Nordic

I rechecked the dictionary, and it does have "Norþweg" (in addition to Norweg) - so that and Norþwegisc could be ok for the country and its people (Norþwegsǽtan)/language (Norþwegisc geþéode), and we can retain Noren/Norren for "Norse." There is also Norþmann for "a Norseman, Norwegian, or Dane." --James 20:31, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to disagree, though. I would strongly favour retaining the ð in words such as Norðweg as it appears the ð form was the earlier one. Rícaheard 20:02, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Note that in this encyclopaedia we have taken the convention that þ is used for the voiceless th sound (IPA /θ/), while ð represents the voiced one (IPA /ð/). I'm not sure, but I suspect that the th sound in Norðweg is voiceless, so it should be written Norþweg. --Saforrest 21:12, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
Thanks - I will correct it. Rícaheard 21:16, 4 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Genitive plural of the definite articleAdiht

Wes þu hal, James. I was wondering about the þǽra in Foresittend þǽra Geánlǽhtra Underríca. I've noticed that in the Wikipedia:Tutorial_on_Old_English#Nouns:tutorial you use þǽra as the genitive plural for all genders. The only reference I have available at the moment (Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Primer) gives þára instead. As well, the grammar tutorials you have on your website give þára for the masculine genitive plural and þǽra for the feminine.

Is there any gender-specific information conveyed here, or are þára and þǽra simply variant spellings of the same word, which is the same for all genders? --Saforrest 02:21, 6 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

No gender-specific information. Simply variant spellings. Þára is the original form, so it would probably be best if all forms of the genitive plural were changed to that. Þǽra is a variant form with ǽ from þǽm. I've only seen one website refer to any masculine/feminine distinction in the plural, whereas everywhere else I've looked has given common genitive/dative plural forms. Þára, þǽm, and þá should be our plural articles. I'll make the change here as soon as possible. --James 13:02, 6 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Naman bryttiscra burgaAdiht

Wes þu hal.

  1. I noticed we have come up with different translations for some of the place-names. What sources are you using? I used the Popular Dict. of English Place-Names (cross-referenced with dictionaries to obtain genders). For Cornwall, you put Cornweal m - I had Cornwalas pl. Of course, it may that both are correct. The Dict. listed these forms: Cornubia (c.705), Cornwalas (891), Cornualia (1086). I went for Cornwalas because 705 looked unenglisc (it may merely be a Latinization) and because the etymology is given as OE walh plural walas (which suggests the plurality of Cornwalas and also its status as the older form). I don't use the 1086 (Domesday Book) forms unless it's really necessary, since it's a very late source in AS terms and because the DB has erratic spelling (I think Normans wrote it). Similarly you changed Cumbraland to Cumberland. I can believe both forms probably existed, but the dict. says the place-name means land of the Cymbre (gen. pl. = Cumbra). That suggests Cumbra might be preferable.
  2. I'd only been adding the larger towns and cities - you've added some smaller ones. Nothing wrong with that. However, it does mean that the final list (if it ever became comprehensive) would run to tens of thousands. This raises the question of whether to move it to a new page. Rícaheard 08:08, 7 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
I was just adding what I had from the Clark Hall and Bosworth&Toller dictionaries. I didn't see any large/small difference (then again, I'm not British, so I wouldn't know). I used Cornweall, because Cornwealas was used for the people, people as a whole, and the region (in the sense of the people). Oftentimes, OE used the plural of the people to refer to the land itself, but we had a word for the land itself, so I thought it easier to use it. --James 11:59, 7 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)
Fair enough. I don't have the B&T (yet?), so use Clark Hall and Sweet. (In general I find they don't contain many place names - I expect B&T is better for this as it's so much bigger.) I suppose that some of the small places might have had importance then that they don't know, anyway. Sweet is quite rude about the other two dictionaries in his preface - that's why Oxford never made him a professor (in the British sense of that term): because none of the other professors could stand him! --Rícaheard 22:00, 7 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Geþéode vs. SprǽcAdiht

As you may have noticed, the main page went to héafodsíde instead of "main_page". Also, some of the language links now go to sprǽc instead of geþéode. If ye could help finish moving all the geþéode to sprǽc, I'd appreciate it. We may wish to decide if there's any real difference in the two words, and let that guide our usage. The definitions are:

  1. geþéode:[] n (-es/-u) speech, language; nation; translation; meaning
    1. geþéodan [] wv/t1b 3rd pres geþéodeð past geþéodede ptp geþéoded to engage in; translate
  2. sprǽc: 7. a speech, language;

Input is always welcome. Tomorrow/later today, I'll be putting up some more changes on the main page, grammar corrections, perhaps putting up more articles. --James 02:11, 9 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Presently I prefer sprǽc, because it is less ambiguous than geþéode, and the cognate of the word for 'language' in other Germanic languages. --Saforrest 01:42, 10 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)


I am sorry to revert your edit which changed month names :: your edit clashed with me editing to put more information in. Anthony Appleyard 23:13, 12 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

Gecynde for Gewritum mid Níwengliscum trahteAdiht

I notice you created the category Category:Trametas tó áreccenne on Englisc for organizing all articles which contain modern English.

I had actually already created Category:Gewrit mid Níwengliscum trahte for this purpose. The nice thing about this category is that it is automatically added by Template:English, so all you have to do is insert {{english}} in an article, and you'll have:

  • A notice stating that modern English is present and should be translated
  • Inclusion in a category for finding like articles

There's no need to have both these categories: one will suffice. I like your name better. (Shouldn't it be Trametas tó áreccenne on Englisce though?) If you agree, then we can redirect Category:Gewrit mid Níwengliscum trahte to Category:Trametas tó áreccenne on Englisc and have a more complete list of categories. As well, you can just use {{english}} from now on to include pages in the category. --Saforrest 23:41, 15 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

That's cool by me. On Englisc is accusative, meaning "into English" whereas "on Englisce" is stating "in English." I didn't realize what your thinking on that was...I was making a list of "to be translated" and I thought you were simply collecting all those that had modern English. Oops. I'll remember that in the future. Also, I'm hoping we can get up to 1,000 sometime this year...hopefully by midyear if we're good. Also, I've put Beowulf into the wikibooks project. --James 00:10, 16 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)

The fact that my intent wasn't clear is sufficient evidence for me to prefer Category:Trametas tó áreccenne on Englisc to Category:Gewrit mid Níwengliscum trahte, so I'll set the latter to redirect to the former, and we can just use {{english}} for inclusion. --Saforrest 07:38, 17 ÆGé 2005 (UTC)


Hi James. Flyhtscrid works for "airplane", but I rather like lyftcræft, which was used on NASC in the past (e.g. in the article on September 11). Maybe we could use both, and 'flyhtscrid' could refer to an airplane or possibly a passenger airplane, while 'lyftcræft' refers to aircraft in general? --Saforrest 17:25, 11 Hré 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good, but every time I see 'cræft' I think "strength; skill" first. Now, how about helicopters? --James 16:58, 12 Hré 2005 (UTC)
I hope you don't mind my interjecting. How about something concrete, visual, and poetic, like lyftwægn, "air-chariot?" It's more natural. And lyftláca for "pilot?" (Would úpyppe work for elevator?) --Walda 05:17, 24 Sér 2005 (UTC)
Not a problem. Lyftwægn sounds like a nice OE word. For an elevator, you could do hebbend, úphebbend, úpáhebbend/hebbere, úpábregdend - any of those sound good? --James 07:15, 25 Sér 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I like your recommendations for "lift." Do you think something like úpcleofe (or úphæften for those who find them confining) might also work? --Walda 20:56, 25 Sér 2005 (UTC)


ang:Template:Disambig and Image:Disambig.pngAdiht

Most of the disambiguation templates listed at de:Bild Diskussion:Logo Begriffsklärung.png#Vorlagen - Templates are using Image:Disambig.png. The image should give an indication about the nature of the page and avoid linking between "normal" articles and disambiguation pages.
See commons:User:Gangleri#My contributions about a "collection" of other templates used in various Wikipedias. Please link the appropriate pages (if they exist at ang:) to en:Wikipedia:Village pump, en:Wikipedia:Embassy, en:Wikipedia:List of articles all languages should have. If you have to create the pages it is a lot of work. Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 10:43, 19 Éas 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your help James! Best regards Gangleri | Th | T 16:59, 22 Éas 2005 (UTC)
I changed the disambiguation page to add that picture into it. Let me know if there are any other useful templates that ANG needs! --James 17:21, 22 Éas 2005 (UTC)

More on the date format questionAdiht

Hi again James. Sorry to belabour this point, but I still have issues with the date format convention.

I would like us to decide on a convention for OE dates. The three conventions around now are:

  1. 11 Solmónaþ
  2. Solmónaþ 11
  3. 11e Solmónaþes

My own preference is, somewhat strongly, for the first. My argument is that it makes it easy to write the date in the way an OE speaker would say it (with number first) without overcomplicating the matter with inflexions.

I gather from what you've done and said previously that your preference is for the second. My objections to this format are that:

  • an OE speaker would probably not have said the name of the month before the day, and
  • the main basis I see for this choice is our own date convention as North American English speakers, e.g. "March 31". This is a pretty artificial choice, particularly as most Commonwealth English speakers, as well as speakers of French and German and other European languages, both put the number after the month. (31 mars and 31. Marz).

Starting from about January I'd made a bit of a project of translating calendar information into ang, both in articles on days and the 'events of the day' pages. Since we hadn't had a convention established, I'd made up my own, which was the first one (e.g. 11 Solmónaþ), and used that throughout article names and article links. See, for example, Category:Géaresdæg.

I know I'd never cleared this convention with others, but I guess I was a bit frustrated when you edited Héafodsíde (to which only you have write access) to effectively impose an alternate convention (the Solmónaþ 11 one), particularly when just to make things work again I'll have to rename all my existing articles and fix all the links to follow this imposed convention.

What I'm looking for, I guess, is for you to convince me why the second convention (Solmónaþ 11) is better, or for us to agree on the 11 Solmónaþ convention and save the work of fixing the article names and links.

It would be good if you respond soonish, as I'd like to get back into translating event articles, but don't want to do so if it means going back and changing all the dates again. Thanks. --Saforrest, 20:11, 17 Sér 2005 (UTC)

Pages with macronsAdiht

Hi James. In general we should probably avoid using macrons until we decide whether we're using macrons or acute accents.

In any case, I'd suggest against creating macronized versions of pages like Ealra Hālgena Ǣfen for the original Ealra Hálgena Ǽfen. The proper thing to do is to formally move it if we decide to go with macrons. Copy-pasting it is bad for the same reason that copy-pasting is generally bad. --Saforrest 04:50, 31 Wéodmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

No worries about the two different kinds of pages; I wasn't quite sure what you had intended before. Thanks for creating the vote page.
By the way, I replied to your post on wikipedia-l about the appearance of ǽ versus ǣ: I hope the information about Arial Unicode is helpful. --Saforrest 01:16, 2 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Hi, over at en:Talk:Old English language there was a discussion of whether to use acutes or macrons in en:Old English language. One of the arguments was that since acutes are used here at ang: they should be used in the en: article as well. If the editors of ang: have decided to switch to macrons, does that mean we can (finally!) switch to macrons at en:Old English language as well? Angr 08:45, 10 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Jeanette BiedermannAdiht

Hello, this is de:Benutzer:Steffen Löwe Gera, administrator of de-wikipedia ... i'd like to know how you guo the idea to write about a German pop singer in Anglo Saxon? -- 19:40, 2 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Ōðeru, ŌðruAdiht

What's your reason for preferring ōðeru over ōðru? Most of the books I have seem to have the latter. --Saforrest 05:04, 9 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Well, if ōðru appears more often than ōðeru in Bosworth and Toller, then I guess I'll go ahead and move Ōðeru Woruldgūþ back where it was originally. Let me know if you have any objections. Saforrest 22:55, 9 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)
Thanks. I modelled it after haligu from the Wright's Grammar, which has haligu, not halgu throughout. And since it is declined like hálig, I thought it best to put it at Ōðeru. --James 06:17, 10 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Category movesAdiht

Hi James. Since you're the only one who can do category moves (on this wiki, anyway) could you rename the categories with acute accents in their titles? A good place to start is Special:Unused categories, since my efforts at replacing instances of acute accents with macrons have meant that a lot of pages now refer to their category titles with macrons (as they should) and therefore don't work yet since the categories need to be moved. --Saforrest 21:17, 9 Háligmónaþ 2005 (UTC)

Category namesAdiht

There is already Category:Sprǣc, so Category:Sprǣca is not needed.

I suppose there's a question about whether singular or plural is preferable. As far as I've seen, the only wikipedia which prefers the plural form to the singular one in category names is the Modern English one: the French and German wikipedias both use singular (e.g. de:Kategorie:Mann rather than de:Kategorie:Männer on German wikipedia.)

So I think I'd prefer to use singular over plural. Do you have a preference? --Saforrest 02:40, 21 Hāligmōnaþ 2005 (UTC)

Upload images to CommonsAdiht

Hi James, I see you've uploaded a fair number of images. Before uploading something here, you might consider checking on the Commons for something equivalent, and/or uploading your images and other content there.

That way, the image in question will be usable by all Wikimedia projects, and doesn't take up any space here. --Saforrest 21:29, 1 Winterfylleþ 2005 (UTC)

As an example, it wasn't necessary to upload Image:John G. Roberts.jpg, since the identical image exists on the Commons, named 'John Roberts.jpg'. We could make a customized Englisc version of the Commons page at Image:John Roberts.jpg. Right now, the 'John G. Roberts' file is just taking up disk space. --Saforrest 21:38, 1 Winterfylleþ 2005 (UTC)


Thanks. Richard. 20:33, 8 Winterfylleþ 2005 (UTC)

Some translationsAdiht

Hi, I'm writing an essay that refers to Old English (relating to word order) and I'd like to get some example sentences translated.

The cow the table ate
Ate the cow the table
The cow ate the table

If you could do me this favour I would be very grateful, many thanks - FrancisTyers

Thanks for your reply, the cow is the subject in all three and the table is the object :) - FrancisTyers

Sēo cū þone bēod ǣt.
Ǣt sēo cū þone bēod.
Sēo cū ǣt þone bēod.
Thanks! :) - FrancisTyers

Die Perfekte WelleAdiht


als großer Fan von Juli freue ich mich zwar sehr, dass du was über Perfekte Welle (der Titel wird übrigens ohne Artikel geschrieben) verfasst hast, aber ich glaube nicht, dass der Songtext bei Wikipedia stehen darf. Der Admin von http://www.esistjuli.de/ (der größten Fanseite, wo ich auch Mitglied im Forum bin) bemüht sich schon seit langem vergeblich, die Rechte für das Veröffentlichen der Songtexte von der Plattenfirma zu bekommen. -- slg

Vielen Dank :-)
Ich kenne leider keinen Link mit den Lyrics (da es das Label verboten hat), aber ich werde den Administrator von esistjuli.de fragen. -- slg


Hi there. I was wondering what I can do in order to mark a page for deletion. I've already noticed two vandals creating new pages but all I was able to do was blank them. Enwiki has the {deletebecause} template but here I wasn't able to locate anything like that. Is this another thing on the to-do list or have I just missed the proper template? Thanks. Bansp 01:50, 21 Solmōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Could you please write a stub http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur%C3%B3w - just a few sentences based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur%C3%B3w ? Only 2 -5 sentences enough. Please. Pietras1988 15:55, 2 Hrēþmōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Hello James, I'm wondering if you could help me fix this article that I created into the proper Old English language? The article looks "awful" at the moment. Please -- Regards Joseph 10 March 2006.

Yes, I am very interested in Old English! -- Regards, Joseph, 11 March 2006

Thanks a lot for your help (and time)! I am very gratefull and I'll try to finish the rest of the article.-- Regards, Joseph, 11 March 2006

I finally managed to get the caption done (after trying multiple times!). The right order turned out to be "Image.jpg|right|thumb|Description" instead of "Image.jpg|thumb|right|Description" (in fact, I had mistakenly typed the word "thumb" as "thubm"!)-- Regards, Joseph, 9:33 am, 11 March 2006 (NZ time)

A little translationAdiht

Hi, James! Could you help me translating the following text to Anglo-Saxon?

"Allan Kardec is the pseudonym used by the French educator Hippolyte Léon Denizard Rivail during his 15 last years of life, dedicated to the structuration of the Spiritism. As an educator, he was one of the main divulgators of Pestalozzi's educational method in the 19th century. Published books of grammar, Arithmetic and suggestions for the improvement of public education in France. Taught physiology, astronomy, physics and chemistry at Polimatic Lyceum, in Paris."

Wendung: "Allan Kardec is se ōðernama gebrocen fram þǣm Frenciscan lǣrere Hippolyte Léon Denizard Rivail in his 15 endegēarum his līfes, þe is gecnoden tō structuration? þæs Gāstscipes. Swā lǣrere wæs hē ān þāra hēafodgewīdmǣrsera for Pestalozzies lǣrendlicum wege in þǣre 19an ielde. Hē forþypte grammaticcræftbēc, mcræft, and scēonessa for gebētunge folclicre lǣrunge in Franclande. Lǣrde bodigcræft, tungolcræftwīsan, physica, chemistry æt Polimatiscum Lyceum, in Parise." - That's my attempt, but some words I'd need a better definition to get a good translation. -- 03:57, 18 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)

"In 1854, Rivail started studying the paranormal phenomena that were investigated by many scientists and philosophers during the second half of 19th century. His pedagogical sense, built along 30 years focused on education, was fundamental in his attempt to elaborate a system of thought in which the spiritual manifestations worked to the social and moral transformation of the humanity. Instead of devoting the rest of his life "to prove scientifically" that some of those phenomena could be caused by the action of spirits, Kardec tried to extract from the possibility embraced by him, the spiritual or medunic hypothesis, something of profit for the humanity. Inspired by this ideal, he dedicated his last years to the structuration of the philosophical whose name was created by him: the Spiritism (fr. Spiritisme)." Arges 03:13, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)

So, James, could you help me? Arges 13:04, 17 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts! You could substitute "structuration", for systematization, organisation or compilation. The point is that he didn't properly "create" it, but systematized ideas and pratices connected with the human transcendence in a philosophical doctrine. Any other problematic word? Arges 15:47, 18 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Could you ban the IP range They seem to frequent the How to edit a page. -- Zanimum 14:52, 13 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Hi I saw you needed a new wiki logo, I created my own logo (on nds-nl) by copy-pasting, because I don't have the correct font type. I also created one for ang, you can see the result  , if you like it you can ask one of the developers to activate it for you once it's been uploaded an protected as wiki.png Servien 16:57, 13 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Hey James,

I'm a public school teacher from West Virginia and I've been asking contributors on the various Wikipedias in other languages if they could each write a stub for Hampshire County, West Virginia. The purpose is simply for the students in my class to view the various different languages that describe a place they are familiar with. I would very appreciate it if you could write some sort of stub on Hampshire County in Old English in your spare time. Thank you! -- 03:25, 21 Ēastermōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Hi - please go through the checklist on meta, set up the ticker page and tell me your preferrences. I will then test the ticker. If you can contact me on IRC, things will probably go much faster :) -- de:Benutzer:Duesentrieb 12:38, 3 Sēremōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Hi! I didn't know that the Ang: wikisource had been created until you told me about it, so thanks for letting me know! I'll try to put up some things to the en: domain when I can, I'm just wondering if it's the right place to put documents in a foreign language (is Goethe in German or English there?). If there's any help or advice you could offer me on any of the ang: sites, please do! I'm always open to new ideas on wiki. James-- 17:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:BirgitteSB"

I don't really consider anglo-saxon a foriegn language to en.wikisource. Our policy is to title the text by the most common name. Since most (if not all) Anglo-Saxon works did not have "titles" as we would use the term today, I believe they will end up with modern titles (i.e. s:en:Bright's Anglo-Saxon Reader. But I am not against titling works in Anglo-Saxon as long it has been published that way at some point. In fact many works should probaly be disambiguation pages with links to the original Anglo-Saxon as well as modern interpretaions. I really think it would be great to have an Anglo-Saxon Portal that could be written in Anglo-Saxan on en.WS. We have not started portals at all yet as we are waiting for the namespace manager. This is all just me brainstorming so others may disagree, but I think all english languages should be at en.WS. Since we are working with staitic texts we do not have to worry about one editor writing in scots and another adding a bit in middle english. In fact we do not even have to deal with the british vs american spelling problems that en.WP does. I think that to make a seperate ang.WS is really a wasted effort as far as all the administrative work that must be done. If we just used the infastructure of en.WS everyone would have more time to actually work on texts.-- 18:14, 6 Sēremōnaþ 2006 (UTC) en:User:BirgitteSB


Needs updateing - rm "Frēo Feohgifunga sind gehenda; nīedgewritu gebyriaþ ǣr þǣm 28an Sēremōnþes." Rich Farmbrough 21:06 1 Mǣdmōnaþ 2006 (UTC).

MYSPACE.com question

Hi I don't know where to post questions here, so I am just using the edit option- I hope it's ok.. ; anyway, I just wanted to ask how do you translate the terms on the www.Myspace.com site contact table, or how do you call the Blog and things like that. Thanks for your help. -Fran.


Hi James: Not sure if you come by here much recently (I certainly haven't). I noticed that MediaWiki:Portal is "Gemǣnscipe Ingang" in Englisce; I imagine this is from when it used to be "Community Portal" in English. Since it's now simply "Portal", I would think "Ingang" would do. If you agree, could you change it to that? --Saforrest 06:19, 1 Wēodmōnaþ 2006 (UTC)

Possibility to learn Anglo Saxon in GermanyAdiht

Hi James, I just wanted to ask if you know any institute in Germany where it is possible to learn Anglo Saxon. It sounds interesting to me because I'm visiting the 6th form of a German high school right now, and my main subject is English. Last week our teacher told us to look up information about the preceeding languages of modern English, so I found the Anglo Saxon Wikipedia and also had a short look on your user page. I'd welcome you to visit my user-page on the German wiki.


Thank you, BigAl

-- 21:30, 6 Hāligmōnaþ 2006 (UTC)


Someone's let us know about vandalism on Wikify - you seem to be an active local admin, so could you delete it if possible? Thanks. en:User:Shimgray


I was made sysop by one of bureaucrats last autumn, after a huge wave of vandalism here. As I try to be here as often as possible, I asked for temporary sysop rights. Remigiu 17:26, 30 Se Æfterra Gēola 2007 (UTC)

Some actions neededAdiht

Please check Category:Candidates for speedy deletion, which has a huge backlog of articles that need to be deleted. Also, consider blocking some accounts indefinitely, since they are holding inappropriate usernames (this and this, in example). Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 00:51, 18 Hrēþmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what you said in my talk page, but it is good to see the backlog gone :-) Thanks! -- ReyBrujo 05:22, 31 Hrēþmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Końskowola - PolandAdiht

Could you please write a stub http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%84skowola - just a few sentences based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ko%C5%84skowola ? Only 3-5 sentences enough. Please. 123owca321 19:07, 31 Þrimilcemōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Request for ArticleAdiht

Good Evening James!

Would you mind helping me write a stub http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_Grammar_School - just a few sentences based on the English article? Just 2-4 sentences would be sufficient enough. Please. --Per Angusta 08:19, 19 Sēremōnaþ 2007 (UTC)


I notice you speak english and anglo-saxon... Brilliant, and you added stuff to that ww2 article, excellent, but I was thinking with your translation skills see if you can translate part of the english ww2 article to anglo-saxon. -- 23:11, 23 Sēremōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

¡Cualli in Huēhue Inglatlahtōlli Anglo Saxōn!Adiht

Hi. I don't know if you can help me find a dictionary for basic Anglo Saxon words as I'm quite interested in these old languages. If you could reply me on my talk page, I would be grateful. ¡Tlahzocamati! -- Fluence 20:19, Tlachicuazti 23 2007 (UTC-5)

Thanks for the answer :)-- 02:01, 26 Sēremōnaþ 2007 (UTC)


Hello James. You seem to be one of the few local active persons on this Wikipedia. As you may have noted I have started to run the bot Byrialbot here in order to update interwiki links. If it is marked as a bot, its contributions will no longer appear in the recent changes page (unless you select the "show bots" link) so the "real" changes will be easier to spot. I made a request for a bot flag. I invite you to give your opinion on the request. If the request gets local support, I can afterwards ask a steward at the Meta-Wiki to grant the bot flag. Thank you. Byrial 07:37, 6 Mǣdmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Folcmorðor / FolcummorðorAdiht

Hi James. About the Folcmorðor / Folcummorðor thing:

I was originally going to use "Folcmorðor" myself, but the word I was basing the coining on was der Völkermord in German and de volkerenmoord in Dutch.

Both of these use the genitive plural of "folk": that is, the meaning is (roughly) the "murder of peoples" rather than "people-murder".

I'm happy with using "folcmorðor", but I wonder if it carries the proper emphasis on the scale of the murder in question. --Saforrest 19:05, 31 Mǣdmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing up my confusion on this! I have gone with the genitive plural (folcamorðor) for consistency with the German. I have also followed the same convention in folcawanderung.
(I confess I have a bit of a weakness for adapting German words to Englisc: it's just so cool to see it become slightly more recognizable to my Modern English eyes: it emphasizes the oft-hidden continuity of the Germanic languages.) --Saforrest 04:55, 5 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)


Hello James, I asked for bot status for PipepBot on Wikipedia:Þorpes Wiella and on Meta. A bureaucrat wrote, I have first to ask the opinion of the users. Could you please write your opinion at Wikipedia:Þorpes Wiella? Thank you very much! it:User:Pipep 19:16, 22 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Image:Landcarte þæs Virginia mearcaþ Ēadweard Æðeling Scīr.svgAdiht

No objection to having this here, but there was no need to upload it. We could have just used commons:Image:Map of Virginia highlighting Prince Edward County.svg because it's on Wikimedia Commons and is usable by all projects. --Saforrest 05:01, 23 Wēodmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

MediaWiki interface for Anglo SaxonAdiht

Hi James. I see you have in the past done some Anglo Saxon localisation of the interface of MediaWiki by editing page in the namespace MediaWiki. I was wondering if you knew that localisation in this local Wikipedia means that only this Wikipedia can benefit of your efforts for Anglo Saxon.

I am one of the administrators of Betawiki. In this wiki we facilitate localisation of any language for MediaWiki. I was wondering if you were willing to go over there and work on the localisation of Anglo Saxon. From there we will add your translations to the source code of MediaWiki, so that anyone can benifit from your efforts (for example on Wikimedia Commons) and those installing MediaWiki outside Wikimedia projects.

Currently about 28% of the Anglo Saxon core messages for MediaWiki are available.

If you personally do not want to make the effort, for whichever reason, please do make an effort to try and find 2 or 3 other users that are willing to work on the generic translation for the MediaWiki interface on Betawiki. If you have any questions, please let me know.

Thank you very much for your current and past efforts to put Anglo Saxon on the digital map. Cheers! Siebrand 16:02, 5 Blōtmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

Translation (again! and again...)Adiht

Just a few things... First, I fully welcome you to correct my articles which I've written so far, as you've done with the "Roanoke, Virginia" entry, since I value truth and accuracy above all else. I've made a list of them on my User Page on here, just for my own easy access.

Next, I've made a few video game articles, using "computer game" as the term for the modern concept, specifically, spærcletelle gamen as singular, and "spærcletelle gamne" as plural... although I'm sure I somehow got that wrong. Just lemme know if I did and I'll fix all instances of that. What should the full case listing for "game" be?

Finally, I want to write one for the Heathen (Germanic/Norse Pagan) concept of "Draugr," and I was wondering how best to translate the term into Old English, based on how Old Norse terms with "au" end up becoming in Old English. Would simply "Draug" be fine? Just send a message to me on my User Talk page so I'll know to check here, thanks. Ƿōdenhelm 07:59, 23 Gēolmōnaþ 2007 (UTC)

How would "sport" be translated, in the sense of a team sport? I have a short stub article for the Washington Capitals, and I just saw on the Main Page about the NHL's first instance of racial integration, so I figured I could get some information up about hockey, the NHL, and various teams. Thanks man. Ƿōdenhelm 05:54, 18 Se Æfterra Gēola 2008 (UTC)


I want to write a page for the sport of soccer/football. Fōt would be the obvious first part of the page's title, but when researching the terms for "ball," I only found this entry on a webpage:

ball = æppel m anything round,
clíewen n sphere,
þóðer m, þóðor m sphere;
~ of thread or yarn clíewen n

I feel that æppel would be misinterpreted as the fruit, and I've seen clīewen also used as a "group." What do you suppose is the best solution for the compound "football"? Message me back.
Ƿōdenhelm 06:03, 9 Solmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Request to block IP address

Has performed several pages of childish vandalism, including altering existing pages (Wed Feb 27, 2008) —Ƿōdenhelm 04:14, 28 Solmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)


Hi! Are there any bureaucrats in this wikipedia? Thanks. --Kenshin 15:44, 9 Hrēþmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

ang.wikt & other thingsAdiht

Hi James, I left You a message on Your ang.wikt talkpage, please could You grant VolkovBot there bot-status, he is doing great work and it would be nice to have the recentchanges clean, I am looking at the rc there from time to time to help to keep it clean.
Please could You also have a look at Image:LisaGerrard2004.jpg history further details there, You might need to block the IP and the account, since he is not stopping the uploads, many thanks, best regards, --fugol (:> )=| 11:45, 24 Hrēþmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Hi James, thanks for the last help. Please could You again take a look at this page, many thanks in advance, best regards, --fugol (:> )=| 02:14, 4 Ēastermōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Edit WarAdiht

You continually revert some of my edits which are primarily stylistic in nature. While grammatical corrections are perpetually welcomed, stylistic ones are not. For instance, you have left an Edit Summary stating "we do not use the dotted characters. Many is spelled 'manig' not 'maenig'". To that, I will respond with a few things: Firstly, "many" can be written both ways. You seem to forget that OE was not standardized. If you're hard-bent on standardization, then try going to the Modern English Wiki, and demanding that the Association Football page be moved to a page titled "Soccer." See how the English respond to that one. Next, I present this:

Wikipedia:Manual of Style says, "The English Wikipedia has no general preference for a major national variety of the language. No variety is more correct than the others. Users are asked to take into account that the differences between the varieties are superficial.", and says, "When either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so."

Dotted letters, and the spelling of many, are both very superficial. You may not use them, but I do, and I will not be told how to style a page.

I couldnt help but notice that you were polite towards me until I wished to be an administrator. Furthermore, in all blatant truthfulness, one's skill in a language has nothing to do with functioning as an administrator. There are many, many administrators on various Wikis who barely speak a word of the language in question. I feel that you are covering the reason, through "political" styled methods.

Remember to be professional. You do not own this Wiki, nor do I. —Ƿōdenhelm 05:27, 2 Ēastermōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Hey there !Adiht

Hi! I'm Amanda, and I just found this site - pretty bitchin! I don't know where to start and all...but I want to help out! :) Do y'all spell things however you want here, or is there a standard or something? Cant wait to get in, I've loved this language since Beowulf :) --AmandaPanda 10:49, 2 Ēastermōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

What's your deal?Adiht

Alright, I know you've got a personal grudge against me, for what reason, I dont know. How about this... Send me an instant message, using the AIM client, to the screen name Wodenhelm, and let's discuss exactly what's going on, in a civilized and adult manner. —Ƿōdenhelm 11:50, 2 Ēastermōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

New botAdiht

Dear James, do you agree with my new interwiki bot User:ViskonBot? I ask you this because I need the support of the community here. My bot has a bot flag in bat-smg wiki and is going to have in en and lt wikis in few days. Thank You. --Viskonsas 17:01, 7 Þrimilcemōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Bot flag request for User:タチコマ robotAdiht

Hi, I'd like to request a bot flag for my bot User:タチコマ robot. Bot takes care of:

  • Double redirects
  • Interwiki linkage
  • Commons delinking (backup)

-- Cat chi? 20:37, 12 Wēodmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Grecland and CrecalandAdiht

Do you have any backing for the name Grēcland? The texts I have seen give Creca lond or Creca land (which could be written Crecaland). I might be wrong.

(Sorry; I am too weary to write in proper Englisc...) Hogweard 12:56, 18 Wēodmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Neologism proposal pageAdiht

I've created a page to propose neologisms on, which I felt would be a good approach for coining new terms. This is what I've got worked up so far, which can be seen here, including its first proposal, for the term "bicycle." (I figured up "tūhwēol"). If there are additional points you feel should be added, or any terms you yourself would want to see used, help yourself man. This particular project page could help breathe new life into Old English and truly bring it into the modern age, as a fully usable language, which I'd love to see :) Perhaps later we could also work on idiomatic expressions.

Ƿōdenhelm 05:57, 4 Hāligmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

"User" translationAdiht

Hello James,

Can you come up with an Englisc version of "user"?

Tseno Maximov 08:58, 25 Winterfylleþ 2008 (UTC)

Hi Tseno!
Most of the time, I've translated it as either Brūcere (m)/Brūcestre (f) or the more neutral (but masculine gender) Brūcend --James 01:40, 4 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, James. Can you replace "User" in the user pages so that they may look more authentic? :) – Tseno Maximov 19:47, 10 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Royal Titles - ThoughtsAdiht


Just hoping to pick your brains before doing anything drastic.

We have a number of pages on kings, or redlinks for them, using for example "Ēadweard I Englalandes". I am not at all convinced by the authenticity of this "Englalandes" bit.

To about Henry II one would expect Engla cyning. Thereafter Engla cyning should be acceptable, though Rex Anglorum had then given way to Rex Angliae. By analogy with other territorial titles that would be Cyning of Englalande, not Englalandes. In Scotland Scotta cyning or Scottena cyning can at a push go all the way through to 1707.

I know of no example of "Cyning of X" nor of "Cyning Xes"; just "Engla cyning", "Romwara cyning" etc. There are however plenty of "Eorl of X" titles in the Chronicle. I would follow that latter model.

Or am I getting it badly wrong?

Hogweard 22:12, 1 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Changing my mind again, having seen "Asyria cyning" and others without a genitive plural or even a dative, but then one Willelm, Engla landes cyng. Whether to stick with Engla cyning or just to add cyning after Englalandes seems a matter of choice, with much use of "Redirect".

Hogweard 23:05, 2 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Well, you've got it partly right there. King of X is X-es cyning or X-a cyning where X is in the genitive case. Most often in true Old English, it's king of the x people in form, Engla cyning, Romwara cyning, and so on. In the case of our England, there are Angles, Scots, Welsh, Cornish, and Irish there, so perhaps Brytene cyning would be acceptable as King of Britain? If you're using of Englalande that's saying from England, that the king comes from England, not necessarily that he's the king of that place. I can't wait to see articles on King of the Scots, Mary Queen of Scots, etc. --James 22:58, 27 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Go-Joseon, oþþe Eald Corēa?Adiht

I was flipping through random articles, and came across Go-Joseon. I was wondering about the balance between title accuracy, and language consistency. I put a small mention of this on the page's talk page. Whichever title ends up being official, should I go ahead and create a redirect from the alternative? —Ƿōdenhelm 02:21, 4 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

I'd say Old Korea would be better usage here, if only for the English tended to translate things into their language, but definitely mentioning in the first few sentences that it's Go-Joseon in the original language. --James 22:59, 27 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah—Adiht

Do you have any clue why the main page got locked? It was done by some user who doesnt even contribute on here, I think (I dont feel like looking up who did it) —Ƿōdenhelm 03:47, 4 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Cū moved to Oxa...Adiht

Done by Hogweard. Is this legit to you? —Ƿōdenhelm 21:05, 16 Blōtmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

I have no idea why that would be moved. They're two different animals as far as I know. Moving back. --James 18:02, 27 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Hey thereAdiht

Hey, I'm Marco and I just started here. I saw you wrote something on my page here, but I can't read it just yet. I'm working at the school library right now, and I found a few books on Middle and Old English, and found this place. What's with those p's and 3's all over the place. I can't make those same things on my keyboard. --Santiago88 06:36, 28 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

A question or a proposal, something like thatAdiht

Not sure if this has already been raised, but is there a way to populate the search database with New English terms that would automagically redirect to searching in Old English? I suppose it would be something like combining a NE->OE dictionary lookup with the search engine. Just curious, as it could be a nice feature for the wiki. (To be honest, I'm not really sure how the Wikipedia program engines and libraries are constructed from a programmer's point of view, or if there's any way that a developer could add onto them. Do you happen to know, or even have a vague hunch of where one might look?) — Scíráþ 00:27, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm....search database meaning the left-hand side box? I just want to clarify so I can ask the right people. --James 10:31, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
Aye, that's the one. — Scíráþ (Sorry, forgot to login before I started editing.)
Of course, a quick-and-dirty solution would be for people to make it a habit of entering an article name in New English and setting up a redirect to the Englisc article. More work, but I suppose it could become habitual if a person made an effort to do so. (Sort of like hitting 'save' on a word processor periodically while writing. LOL) — Scíráþ 06:49, 1 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Main PageAdiht

Our main page looks pretty awful. It's protected so it can only be edited by sysops(!) Those of us who are going to be around frequently need to be able to edit it without tapping a sysop on the shoulder from some other wiki. It would be nice to have it a bit less protected, so that frequent editors here can change it. Especially in the projects early stages when the page needs so much work. Uurad 04:17, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)

I was in the process of sprucing up the main page about two months ago with more categories because, frankly, I agree it's a bit dated. Check out Wikipedia:Heafod3 - that's the one I've been toying with. I'd like to get some portals started, if anyone's interested, as gathering points for main categories on the wiki...that could help the OE side here. --James 10:33, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for doing that. It's definitely better than what we got now. A few things: First, I don't think our project should have an In the News section. All it would be was a bunch of redlinks which no one would bother to fill. Latin Wikipedia has no such section. This day in history may also be too much for us to keep up with. We could probably do "This Month in History" or a "key moments in Angl-Saxon history" though. I think we can only handle a monthly TFA and a monthly picture, though. I also noticed that the Latin wiki has a brown color scheme. I think we should have a gray/silver/black color scheme if we can make it work. Take a look at the Latin wiki to see what I mean. Uurad 17:08, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
Good choice of colors. —Ƿōdenhelm 17:14, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! What can we fill the news section with instead? There's a New Anglo-Saxon Chronicle on the web, and that guy is on the Englisc Archive mailing list. Perhaps he can be our official news guy? I'll look over on the Latin wiki to see the colors. I'm heading out for New Years festivities right now...--James 19:54, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
New AS Chronicle would be good as long as we can sustain it and it isn't full of red links. Uurad 20:05, 31 Gēolmōnaþ 2008 (UTC)
That'd be sweet. By the by, do you happen to have a link to that? I seem to have misplaced my bookmarks in the process of switching machines a year ago. — Scíráþ 06:53, 1 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)
Never mind, I found it! Hehe. I really should Google things before I ask. — Scíráþ 06:57, 1 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

10-11th Century EnglishAdiht

James, thank you again for referencing your site [3]. I will certainly use the model when creating an Old Russian site. I've got another question though. From which century does the language you use to write in Wiki date? I assume 6-7 century AD? If so, is it very different from the 10-11the century language (which I am insterested in)? -- 11:48, 2 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC) Andrusiak

It actually has a wide range of time, from before the 400's until it began to change in about 1150 or so. Even then, the change was very gradual. —Ƿōdenhelm 11:57, 2 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)
For my site, around 849-899 or so, or early West Saxon is that which I use, and generally have edited on this Wiki. This is how Joseph Wright wrote his Old English Grammar, which is probably the best and most informative grammar on the language I've seen to this date. It's easy to understand and arranges things in a simple to follow format. Old English evolved along a continuum, as Wodenhelm said, from ca. 400~450 to ca. 1100AD. That's when records for English drop off in favor of Anglo-Norman, and begin to pick up. Even then, we can see the breakdown of the case system and levelling of inflection merging into Middle English. One example for you, the word stán, around 400, 700, and how we normally see it:
  • 400
Case/number singular plural
nom stān stānōs
gen stānas stānum
dat stānai stānōm
acc stān stānōs
  • 700 AD (how it would've evolved):
Case/number singular plural
nom stān stānas
gen stānæs stāna
dat stānæ stānum
acc stān stānas
  • 800 AD (how we see it written):
Case/number singular plural
nom stān stānas
gen stānes stāna
dat stāne stānum
acc stān stānas
  • With this small sample, you can see how the language did change, and for sake of simplicity on this wiki, we tend to keep to how a majority of texts write the language, with the inflections the words usually have. --James 22:18, 2 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)


James, as you're an admin here, you may wish to have a look at the Wikipedia:Style_Vote#The_score_so_far discussion in terms of what I consider to be incivility on the part of one user. Evertype 13:05, 3 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

What, because you've been called for potential spam?
Wodenhelm, please be civil with everyone on the wiki. I'm not eager to have people leave the wiki - we need as many as we can get. --James 23:00, 3 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)
He has been relentlessly uncivil toward me since I appeared here (having been asked by someone else to give my advice about character encoding). I disagree with him, so he attacks me. My considered opinion is that this wiki is becoming useless because of the lack of consistency in encoding. As a member of the Language Committee I am in a position to make recommendations. If the orthographic chaos here is not sorted out, I will be happy to recommend the dissolution of the Wicipǽdia (it could be reconstituted at Wikia). If data integrity (including spelling for searching) is not taken seriously, the Wicipǽdia will be nothing but a drain on the resources of the Wikipedia. Evertype 16:28, 5 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)
And we're in the process of sorting it out. However, "sorting it out" doesnt equate to "obey evertype." —Ƿōdenhelm 16:51, 5 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)
Oh, yes. Much better to "obey Wódenhelm". Or to put it another way: And I hope "sorting it out" doesn't equate to "allow Wódenhelm to wreck the data usability of this wiki because of his admiration for the letter wynn". Data is more important that aesthetics. (He has not responded to this. He has also not responded to the inadvisability of using yogh at all, or to the problem of having "gegaderung" alongside "ġegaderung" alongside "ᵹeᵹaderunᵹ" alongside "ȝegaderung" alongside "ȝeȝaderunȝ".) Evertype 17:07, 5 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

How about thisAdiht

How about calling off the vote, or suspending, and finding a way to set a user preference to show w/g or yogh/wynn based on user preferences? Then no one has to worry about fonts and compatibility if they don't want to. --CalebGuitarman 22:40, 3 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Sūþ Friþsum GārsecgAdiht

We so have an article on the Pacific Ocean already called Sericus Garsecg, taking the name given in Orosius.

Hogweard 09:13, 4 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

And I saw that right after I put it in there. My mistake :) --James 00:35, 8 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)


Our conflicts have been heated, particularly this last one. I feel that I owe you a genuine and sincere apology for my harsh words. When performing conversions to ȝ and ƿ, I wasnt doing them so much out of personal preference, as I was out of what I felt to be an improvement that I felt the wiki needed.

From my point of view, those improvements were: making a clear and easy-to-read distinction between the sound environments that the character "g" represents (you and I both speak German, and I often find myself wanting to speak some instances of G as a G instead of the y that it needs, out of German habit), and the second being correctly rendering W as it was.

I found it bizarre that these improvements I sought to implement were met with not only resistance, but also measures to outright stop them altogether.

But it wasnt just there that I sought to improve, but I've also done many benefits to article categorization, such as uniting all Cities into a single "Cities" (Byriȝ) category, where they were before fragmented, due to various spellings and the such... as well as putting categories into a hierarchy (for instance, Cyningas of Englalande is within Cyningas, which is within Ƿeras, which is within Lēode).

In any case, I'm glad that we can move past the BS and work together on a solution. I offer a truce, of peace and progress.

Ƿōdenhelm 00:44, 5 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

re:We need your helpAdiht

Dear James, I have left an answer there, I hope it helps, best regards, --fugol (:> )=| 02:41, 8 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Etiquette Q (profile pages)Adiht

Hál þú wæs!

Quick question (didn't know where else to ask, so anyone who wants to jump in with an answer is more than welcome): Is it reasonable for users to post links to their personal sites on their profile page (noncommercial, of course), or is this considered tacky, spam, or otherwise against etiquette?

Scíráþ 21:02, 14 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Enwiki Bot RequestAdiht

Hi there, I was wondering if you were User:JJohnson1701 on the English wiki? If you are, there has been a reply to your request at Wikipedia:Bot requests#Anglo-Saxon character bot. It may be a bit naïve of me to assume you were the user; I only based my assumption off of the usernames starting with J and this diff. If you're not JJohnson1701 sorry for wasting your time. Have a good one, Stepshep 01:10, 16 Se Æfterra Gēola 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary templateAdiht

We've got a new user requesting the creation and use of the Wiktionary template to act as an assistance in translation for modern terms. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 02:34, 9 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Semi-Protection RequestAdiht

For Adolf Hitler, every few weeks I'm having to undo some silly vandalism. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 13:46, 17 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Parts of SpeechAdiht

I need Parts of Speech, and verb terms, mentioned in the Motung of the main page. I plan on fixing the Wikitionary here, so your help would be much appreciated. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 07:21, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Translation proofreading neededAdiht

Hey, I've translated this on Wikimedia. Could you please proofread the translation, which can be seen here? It'd be great if you could! Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 02:41, 14 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Welcome back (June 2009)Adiht

Wes þū James hāl!

You have been missed. I don't think we've wrecked too much in your absence. I see I have to tighten my act up a bit. We won't fall out over scribal preferences in þ against ð, or oþþe / oððe / oþðe / oðþe (all found in the texts, often alternated in the same passages). Some head-scratching might be needed over "licþ", "ligþ" or "līþ", but all in the spirit of scholarship.

I have a few new responsibilities at the moment, but I will hope to improve my Englisc over time, which is what this is all about.

A hearty welcome back.

Hogweard 00:31, 6 Sēremōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, Hogweard! We can definitely debate the finer points, definitely in the name of scholarship and getting a good wiki - and I hope we can do it in good spirits...(it's gotten quite heated in the past). We're all here to help each other, and you help me, I'll help you! -- 01:57, 6 Sēremōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

For oþþe, I tend to use þ in all places for the voiceless sound like think, and ð for the voiced sound like that, so I tend to write oþþe. To me, oþðe looks kinda like writing oþ (conjunction) and ðe (relative pronoun) together, but whatever on that.
The verb licgan, like secgan, dropped the doubled consonant (the j sound) in 2nd and 3rd person forms, so ligst/ligþ and sægst/sægþ are found...in late OE, you do see līst/līþ and sīst sīþ (for siehst/siehþ)...On google books, check this out - the full grammar I used to learn OE. -- 01:57, 6 Sēremōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Vanished toolboxAdiht

Something has happened to the edit tools. When editing, the box below the sandbox allowing one add extra letters (crucially þ, ð, æ any letter with a macron) has vanished. I do not know when it went. Could you fetch it back again somehow?

Hogweard 02:26, 1 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Hey man, I put it back. It looks like the bit under the edit box changed at some point around June/July and I just had to copy over the charinsert tags. --James 20:57, 3 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)
Cymlic! Ic þance þec.
Hogweard 06:10, 10 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)


Your administrator rights were removed by a steward based on this discussion. All the best. fr33kman -simpleWP- 02:52, 10 Hāligmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

I'm BackAdiht

I'm Back. Both I and my mother were in the hospital and re-hab, which is why we weren't here. So, long story short, I would like to also be put back as an admin as well. Thanks!

Oh, wow, 'kay. It's good to have you back, and have another person on the team.

planēta and dƿeoliȝende tunȝolAdiht

Bū ƿord ƿǣron on Enȝlisce ȝebrocen tō tācnienne "planet". Tō secȝenne "dƿeoliȝende planēta" nis þearf, ne ƿæs hit þearf þǣr þū āƿendedest þæt ƿord "dƿeoliȝende tunȝol" on þæt ƿord "planēta". Þæs ne scoldest þū sƿā dōn.    Ƿes hāl!     22:44, 29 Hrēþmōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

Yes, both were, but tungol can also mean 'star,' and any heavenly body including the sun and the moon. If I were to say, I would put 'planēta' as planet, 'steorra' as a star, and 'tungol' as any round space object as a generic term, inclusive of 'planētan' and 'steorran.' The derivative terms tungolcræft, tungolæ, etc. point more towards stars than planets. I did find reference in Bosworth and Toller to "þā seofon dweligendan steorran" (the seven wandering stars; from dwellan) which would make a good explanation on a page for planēta. And good to meet you! --James 14:39, 30 Hrēþmōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

Nevertheless, since this phrase was used thus (with the specific meaning corresponding more or less to the Modern English word "planet") in Old English, it is "correct" (or, more correctly, historical) Old English, and does not warrant changing. You should know that "planet" itself came from a Greek phrase meaning "wandering star", and so is really no more technically specific or accurate than "dƿeliȝende tunȝol". It should be noted also that the instances which you altered were used with the specifier "dƿeliȝende", which helps us know just what kind of "tunȝol". The fact that a literal and rigid understanding of each individual word might leave a vaguer meaning than might be desired, is overridden by the historical usage of the word in a specific sense. This is, in Modern English, called an idiomatic phrase, or, if you will, a "misnomer" (although the word "misnomer" generally indicates an inappropriate word or name, like "malaria" or "tidal wave" or "tsunami", and "dƿeliȝende tunȝol" is not actually inappropriate), and you'll find such a practice throughout many languages, including Old English, as much as one might not like it. So, as much as the literal understanding of this phrase is not entirely scientifically specific, neither is that of "planēta", and as such they should be considered equals, although those who first wrote the word might prefer the one or the other, and for all the reasons I have said above, it is up to us to respect their selection of words, so long as they are of equal worth ("worth" here being used to mean "accuracy and historicity").   Ƿes hāl!     08:40, 31 Hrēþmōnaþ 2011 (UTC)


"Hād" is strong masculine singular. There is no oblique ending except for in feminine strong, and in weak nouns and irregular nouns. Here is the usual strong masculine noun declension: nom. acc. hād, gen. hādes, dat. hād(e). Even just look up "hādes" in Bosworth and Toller. You'll find many occurrences of "hādes" for genetive singular.    Ƿes hāl!     23:51, 1 Ēastermōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

In Wright's Old English Grammar, hād is listed with sunu, feld, bregu, heoru, lagu, magu, meodu, sidu, spitu, wudu, and others as a u-declension noun, page 185-186. That's the guide I go by in declension help when at all possible. --James 13:12, 4 Ēastermōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

I wasn't able to find an example of "hād" in the u-declension (having looked through the first two pages of results for Bosworth and Toller, including the entry for "hād" itself) (whereas I was able to find many example of it being declined regular strong). So, even if it were declined according to u-declension on one or two isolated occasions, I think it is fair enough to say that it was not the norm.    Ƿes hāl!     09:18, 5 Ēastermōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

Danger of losing ang: WicipædiaAdiht

I see from today's Heafodside Motung that there is a plan to delete the whole of ang:; our Wicipædia - see Gesprec:Hēafodsīde#Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Old English Wikipedia.

If the OE Wicipædia is wiped, is there enough interest to float it off independently? I dropped off the Wikipedia projects some time ago and just pop back on occasion, but to see all that beautiful material lost at a keystroke is too much to bear.

If the hangman is really at the door, might the database be obtainable to be kept safe and perhaps reused elsewhere, would you think? Unless the Wikipedia database is openly available it would require negotiation, but not now as the request for it would suggest that ang: accepts it can safely float off with no need to keep it on Wikimedia.

It is possible and not too difficult to run an independent wiki: not on a wiki farm but really independent. The MediaWiki software used by Wikipedia and its stable-mates is free to download from MediaWiki. I have an independent wiki myself, set up and running using that same software and appropriate extensions, although the technical wizardry had to be bought in. Pictures can still be got from Wikimedia Commons without uploading them (I have blocked all uploads to mine to discourage spam).

Independent wikis are spammed viciously by spamdexers and have to be patrolled closely, though some protection can be built in with a blacklist of forbidden phrases.

This is a thought I leave with you.

Hogweard 21:43, 4 Mǣdmōnaþ 2011 (UTC)

Danger of losing OE WikibooksAdiht

Someone has proposed to close Wikibec (ang.wikibooks.org). We need to revive the project if we want to save it! I'm scared that it will be deleted. We take precautions as was done with the proposals to close OE Wikipedia, but I think this has less chance of surviving. Please reply. PiRSquared17 (talk) 02:30, 30 Se Æfterra Gēola 2013 (UTC)

I'll do what I can. All I ask is my adminship be restored here and on wikibooks. --James (talk) 02:17, 8 Hrēþmōnaþ 2013 (UTC)
Just open a request for adminship for a few days (week?). If nobody opposes, I'll ask on m:SRP for you to get temporary adminship for 6 months. Ang.wikibooks will probably be closed (but not deleted), unless (maybe) you create some activity there. PiRSquared17 (talk) 03:24, 2 Ēastermōnaþ 2013 (UTC)
I would be pleased to have James back as an admin.
As to Wicibec, is there anything there that deserves keeping it? Authentic texts can go on the English Wikisource, which covers the whole sweep of the English language. Some things (for example the Dracula translation, as far as it got) have ended up on the Gemotstow, which seems as good a place as any. Hogweard (talk) 20:48, 7 Ēastermōnaþ 2013 (UTC)

Instrumental and LocativeAdiht

Be you whole,

First off, welcome back.

Since you probably don't know me, I'm the new administrator of Wikiwordboc. For about a year, I've been at work, cleaning it up and adding new content.

While looking over the declension tables you made, I noticed that you made the term "middóndlic" to mean 'instrumental', but I could not figure out what made it up, so I replaced it with "tóllic", which Gottistgut also prefers. But what makes up "middóndlic"? I'm just curious.

Also, I noticed that you seem to have put a row for the locative case ("findendlic") in the Old Saxon pronoun declension table. What was your motivation for doing that?


Espreon (talk) 16:19, 11 Þrimilcemōnaþ 2014 (UTC)

Hey Espreon, good to see you here. The ANG Wiktionary and Wikipedia could use the work, and I'm finally able to dedicate more time to join back in. I got the case names in OE from Bosworth & Toller
  1. séo gebígednes - inflection, declension
  2. nominative - nemniendlic
  3. genitive - geágniendlic, gestríenendlic
  4. dative - forgifendlic
  5. instrumental, ablative - ætbregdendlic
  6. accusative - clipiendlic, gecígendlic
  7. vocative - wrégendlic

But looking back, I can't find 'middóndlic' anywhere in B&T, so I think we can get rid of it. I think my attempt at using that instead of ætbregdendlic was that that was already ablative, which is a different case from instrumental. For 'findendlic' for Old Saxon, there are remnants of the locative in Old Saxon and Old High German, which is why I put that there. Few, but there are remnants. --James (talk) 06:28, 28 Wēodmōnaþ 2014 (UTC)

It's good that you're finally able to spend time on this again. Hopefully, I'll find some more time to work on ang.wiktionary soon; sadly, I've been a bit busy lately... and it's going to get far worse. Though, if you're bored and want to do something for ang.wiktionary, you could take a look at my todo list for some ideas.
Could you give me an example or two of remnants of the locative in OS and OHG? I don't think I found anything for OS the last time I went through an OS grammar.
As for 'instrumental', we were aware of the possibility of using ætbregdendlic, but I think our desire for a separate term that corresponds to the term typically used nowadays was simply too strong, and because of this, OE wiki setups on Mediawiki now have tóllic coded in. Afterwards, I did come to think that we probably should have stuck with Ælfric's terminology because, for all we know, they might have decided to think of them as the same, but then we have to consider that he was writing the grammar for Englishmen who needed to learn Latin; not enhance their understanding of English grammar, and then some of the Latin ablative's functions are actually covered by the OE dative, so I think it's too messy to fret about. What say you?
Also, methinks that you're putting glosses and explanations for new terms right in the source of articles. Nowadays, we put them on the corresponding talkpages (take Mōtung:Æppelcyrnel_(wǣpen) as a byspel).
Finally, I think you mixed up the terms for 'accusative' and 'vocative'...
Espreon (talk) 02:50, 29 Wēodmōnaþ 2014 (UTC)

Global accountAdiht

Hi James! As a Steward I'm involved in the upcoming unification of all accounts organized by the Wikimedia Foundation (see m:Single User Login finalisation announcement). By looking at your account, I realized that you don't have a global account yet. In order to secure your name, I recommend you to create such account on your own by submitting your password on Special:MergeAccount and unifying your local accounts. If you have any problems with doing that or further questions, please don't hesitate to contact me on my talk page. Cheers, DerHexer (talk) 17:22, 12 Solmōnaþ 2015 (UTC)

Your account will be renamedAdiht

18:19, 17 Hrēþmōnaþ 2015 (UTC)


21:46, 16 Ēastermōnaþ 2015 (UTC)

DMCA Takedown Notice for Princessdi.jpgAdiht

Dear James~angwiki:

The Wikimedia Foundation (“Wikimedia”) has taken down content that you posted at File:Princessdi.jpg due to Wikimedia’s receipt of a validly formulated notice that your posted content was infringing an existing copyright. When someone sends us a validly formulated notice of copyright infringement, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (“DMCA”) Section (c)(1)(C) requires Wikimedia to take the content down, and to notify you that we have removed that content. This notice, by itself, does not mean that the party requesting that the content be taken down are suing you. The party requesting the take down might only be interested in removing the content from our site.

What Can You Do?

You are not obligated to take any action. However, if you feel that your content does not infringe upon any copyrights, you may contest the take down request by submitting a ‘counter notice’ to Wikimedia. Before doing so, you should understand your legal position, and you may wish to consult with an attorney. If you choose to submit a counter notice, the alleged copyright holder can either refuse to contest the counter notice or decide to file a lawsuit against you to restrain Wikimedia from re-posting the content. Please note that Wikimedia will not be a party to any legal action that arises from you sending a counter notice, and that Wikimedia is unable to provide you with legal advice.

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