Mōtung:Hēafodsīde/Hord 3

Man mæȝ þā Hēafodsīde on rūnstafum and ȝ and ƿ sēon.

And, man mæȝ ealde mōtunge hēr findan: Talk:Hēafodsīde/Hord 1 and Talk:Hēafodsīde/Hord 2.

Sēo ēac Ƿicipǣdia:Þorpes Ƿiella.

If you cannot speak Old English/Anglo-Saxon, but would like to learn, please read the tutorial on Old English. If you do not find it adequate, you could search for Old English/Anglo-Saxon lessons/grammars/readers/etc on the internet; there are quite a few!

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Parts of Speech

I need the parts of Speech in Anglo-Saxon. I'm inclined to used the Latinite ones provided in Ælfric of Eynsham's grammar. I have Nama for noun, and I could assume Word for Verb, but otherwise I need preposition, adverb, "verb", adjective, participle, conjunction, gerund, pronoun, and interjection, and I need them ASAP. Timoði Pætricus Snīðer.

Unfortunately I wouldnt know those. You'd have to ask James. -Wodenhelm

Luckily, we had grammarians back then too! We have: sēo foresetednes (preposition), þæt bīword (adverb), þæt word (verb), tōgeīecendlic (it's ironically an adjective too. Perhaps here: þæt ~e could serve), se dǣlnimend (participle), sēo fēgung (conjunction), A gerund could be 'wordnama' or perhaps 'forgifendlic word' (dative verb) - there's no native Englisc word for it, se bīnama (pronoun), sēo betwuxālegednes (interjection).

• adjective - tōgeīecendlic (it's ironically an adjective too. Perhaps here: þæt ~e could serve)
• adverb - þæt bīword
• case - se cāsus
• conjunction - sēo fēgung
• declension - sēo declīnung
• dual (number) - twifealdlic
• gender - þæt cynn (werlic, wīflic, nāhwæðer; masculine, feminine, neuter)
• gerund - se wordnama? - A gerund could be 'wordnama' or perhaps 'forgifendlic word' (dative verb) - there's no native Englisc word for it,
• inflection - sēo gebīegednes
• interjection - sēo betwuxālegednes
• participle - se dǣlnimend
• person - se hād
• plural - manigfealdlic
• preposition - sēo foresetednes
• pronoun - se bīnama
• singular - ānfealdlic
• verb - þæt word
• the four named cases: nominative (nemniendlic), genitive (āgniendlic), dative (forgifendlic), accusative (wrēgendlic)

Does that help? --James 03:30, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Timothy in the PASE persons index comes up as Timotheus...

I know the Latin form, and the Greek, but I like Timoði so much better. It was Patrick I couldn't find. And thank you kindly for the Parts of Speech, it'll be very helpful when I write up the other POS entries. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 05:47, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Could I please suggest the use of æfterwordēacnes for suffix and forewordēacnes for prefix? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 06:20, 24 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Ah, here are some additional ideas: maybe wordforesetednes for prefix and wordæftersetednes for suffix. or maybe wordendung for suffix... and therefore wordbeginnung for prefix.

ANG Ƿordbōc

RE: I have the first sample dictionary Entry up, The link is here. Could someone check me on the stuff I put, as well as the Motung, where I put the basic framework.--Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 16:31, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Looks awesome, exactly what we need. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 18:45, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm going to start instituting it into as many entries as I can, but I will probably need some help with the rest of the organisation. For example, I want people to be able to look up the compounds and come to the appropriate entry, or search entry...

Also I still need some terms. I think I'm going to use Anginnword for verb, since it means action-word, similar to the latin word Verb which means word, and possible ætanginn for adverb, --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 18:54, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps if a word is a compound, we can show what that compound consists of, with each component pointing to its ƿordbōc entry. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 19:32, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

This is already in some compound word entries, such as mearcweard, hȳdgield --James 04:08, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Doesn't Matter I changed it to have the hyphen style, I like it better, and it is easier for having the compounds refer back to each other. Check out what I've done for the words King, Child, Death, and Ship so far, both in OE and ModE. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 05:50, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

+ Such as "ƿordbōc, cymþ of ƿord + bōc." As far as "verb" goes, I've always used "dōnƿord," just trying to make terms easy to understand the first time a reader comes across them, but it's whatever. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 19:35, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I am not against splitting up a thing like Word-boc, but I wanted to keep them together so people get used to seeing them as is. The idea is to be able to pick up elements of the word without having to hyphenate them. Now, if I were to get a word like folccyning, I might make the folc in brackets, so you get folccyning, so once can click on that element of it. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 22:43, 21 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

That'd work too, I've seen the EN Wikipedia make use of that. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 03:43, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Check out some other dictionary entries already existing. Most need simply IPA and translations. I was going through the Wright's Grammar, taking the modern to Old English to get a large number of words in there. Massive declensions I put onto a declension page as the German Wiktionary does (Wīd). The typical format I've used is:

==language name==
=== Rihtstefn ===

• SAMPA: /sampa pronunciation/
• IPA: /IPA pronunciation/

=== part of speech ===

'''word defined''', (mnf. x-s) (if modern English, plural form here)

1. definition
2. definition

==== Fruma ====

• Ofgangen of galan (derived from X; this is where I put the origin of compound words, such as wordbōc)
  

====Word mid gelīcum Sweotolungum====
synonyms here
====Word mid ungelīcum Sweotolungum====
antonyms here
====Wendunga==== (translations)
*[[Nīwe Englisc]]: {{Wnedung|en|sing}} Use this template to get a nice superscript

Adjectives and verbs have small tables on the right usually, linking to further declensions away from the main page to keep it uncluttered. As for 'action verb' I tend to think of 'dǣdword' (deed-word) as a good invention there. --James 03:45, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Deed word, makes sense, I can do that. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 03:46, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

A few other entries that make use of word history: þrēo, fīf. Again, I concentrated mostly on those words that had obvious histories within Bosworth and Toller and Wright's Grammar. I'm far from finished as far as adding from Wright's, since life and work have gotten in the way. As far as my thoughts on the Wiktionary, I would like to see the pages attain a unified format, and all have IPA and SAMPA pronunciations there. This is a big reason why I also do not feel the need for unique orthographies here, as the Wiktionary, our dictionary, can tell you how to pronounce a word if you want to find out. But that's another argument for a later date. For now, I think the biggest thing on Wiktionary would be getting the formatting and pronunciations all correctly written so we can be sure that any person going there can be reasonably sure the pronunciation of a word is correct. I've given the formatting here for most of the words I put on there, and we can likely put in more sections that don't need to be in all word entries just yet (as they might be just blank for the moment). Modern English, no problem. OE - I defer to Wright and those more knowledgeable on the subject for pronunciation. --James 04:08, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

RE: unique orthographies All of the people whom I use OE with, in IMs and whatnot, make use of ȝ and ƿ. Shall we do round 2 then? — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 04:23, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

The emphasis with my entry style is being able to quickly access the ModE to OE references. I mean we have to face the fact that most people searching through it want the ModE meaning and won't have use for the OE meaning, at least not initially. Also not that many of the things in my entry-style are optional, and can be added later, such as literary sources, and alternate spellings, the latter of which is important for reading texts. I still have more work to do, but I think what I have is pretty extensive. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 05:53, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Oh one other thing to throw in... Let's have it to where pages of modern English titles will act as a translating dictionary, providing a "results" page in the form of a clickable list/thesaurus, so that not only can we translate off of it, but we'll also have a thesaurus to ensure that we have the right sense of the word, with each listed entry being a link to that OE page. Example:

Be

• ƿesan
• bēon

Something about like that. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 09:27, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I don't how to affect the results page, at least not yet. But I am doing entries kind of like that. I plan on writing as many OE meanings for any words (and vice versa) and clicking on that word will lead to that that word's page which should have more of the connotation as well as other synonyms in ModE. lol, I'm working on it. I also have an idioms section, but I don't know many idioms in OE so it makes it rather difficult.--Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 12:04, 23 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Fjord

I'll assume that there's no OE cognate for fjord, as I've searched, and saw that even wiktionary has translations in other languages as being only loan-words. Shall we go that route also, attempt to construct a neologism, or attempt to create a non-attested cognate construction, based on ON/OE language patterns? (such as Ēsatrōþ for Ásatrú) — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 22:05, 24 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that since it's a (North) Germanic root I believe, and other word with a consonant + /j/ in Old Norse is consonant + /e/ in Old English (more or less), to go with feord or fiord or something of the like.Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 09:06, 25 Solmōnaþ 2009

There is nothing cognate in Englisc. (The modern "firth" is derived from the Norse fjörðr.) The closest is mere and that would suit for most sealochs, or you could use luh.

Hogweard 20:08, 25 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I like the feord idea, it's still true to the original fjord yet it looks nicely adapted to OE. Might not be genuine, but it'll blend in nicely. Thanks for yall's input. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 23:23, 25 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

+ Oh what would the grammatical gender be, masculine? — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 23:41, 25 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I'm gonna go with Masculine since the German is Masc as well. It might not be the best source, but remember that German would also get it from the Old Norse or Danish, so I would go with Masc. --Timoði Pætricus Snīðer 23:54, 25 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Mē þyncþ hit gōd, þancas. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 05:20, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

There's sē flēot, which is defined as 'bay, gulf' in Bosworth and Toller. I found that via Google Books. The direct word se 'Ford', þā forda, means a 'ford'. --209.34.235.6 22:20, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I knew about ford, but is it related in meaning to fjord? I've taken it to basically mean "a crossing point." — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 22:35, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Aye, flēot does look good for this. It describes the right shape of water and is found in place-names too. Hogweard 22:36, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Just for right now, ive got feord on the short Kangerlussuaq page, but i'm open to ideas on that. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 22:53, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Standard English introduction

Please add a short standard English introduction on the main page. Just a short paragraph explaining what this website is about. Fyslee 05:33, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I'll do that now. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 05:40, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Notice to Everyone

In the name of peace and progress for the wiki, I will now recognize all ȝƿ articles as being a secondary minority, but still necessary, form of orthography for writing Old English. All articles which have dual versions, I will organize them so as to set gw versions as being the "first standard," and setting ȝƿ versions to a subpage. Those which were formerly gw versions before the mass-conversion, I will delve into the edit history, pull up its original form, and restore that to the standard, while also maintaining its ȝƿ counterpart in a subpage. Those whose entire edit history has been in ȝƿ form, I'll create gw forms for also. This will take me a while, but I'll do it. I believe this will be the final, only, and best way to achieve peace about the matter.

I've done this on one article: Sæterlendisc. I'll wait for feedback from others before continuing further. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 09:55, 26 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

That could work. I'll give it a go later with a couple of articles.

Hogweard 09:19, 28 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

You can if you want, but I dont want to consider it to be anyone's burden but my own. The wiki basically consists of us two, plus our two newcomers Blackkdark and Gherkinmad, so i'll do so for the sake of us, not infrequent visitors or outsiders. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 09:27, 28 Solmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I also prefer ȝ and ƿ simply because it is the original, but, as said before, it is the minority, and I also find it slower to use because it is not on my keyboard. BTW, Wōdenhelm, I'm sorry I am not here much... I am usually on the redwall wiki, the fiction wiki, or the old english wiki, and have only limited time on the computer as it is... But keep up the good work... Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 07:24, 1 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Thanks man. I suppose it's an example of consensus over expertise. But either way, dual versions appear to be the best way to end the conflict, and to allow anyone to view and read whichever they find easiest. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 08:13, 1 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

OE Fiction wiki?

Hi, I would like to start an OE fiction wiki, but I already do stuff on other wikis, and so wouldn't have too much time to do overmuch on it. Would anyone support me (that is: write fiction in OE and post it) in this? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 03:25, 2 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I've considered doing fan translations of maybe one or two manga books that I like... but I dont think it could be published but maybe on a private blog. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 04:22, 2 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

No, what I'm talking about are original works. You should see the MnE fiction wiki; it will give you an idea of what I am wanting to do (although I couldn't ascend to such heights as it has reached. here's the link to it: [1]

Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 05:09, 2 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Colour Stuff

Hi, I'm not quite sure about some colour words that I need to know for some (super stub) articles I'm writing on color (specificly speakign, this Bleoh... (I certainly wouldn't mind if someone came along and improved them).

• First, what is the word for paint? I'm using Bleohclam (color-paste/clay)

• Should I do purple as purpure(n) (borrowed from Latin, but it's what the English used) or should I do Hǣwenrēad/Rēadhǣwen (blue-red/red-blue) so as to have it more Englisc.

• The plural of bleoh (color) is blēo, right? (or is it bleō?)

• I reckon that colours, as nouns, should be neuter (just like bleoh)(I can't discover their gender as nouns in my dictionary).

• What's the plural of cynn?

Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 07:04, 17 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

As long as hǣƿenrēad is genuine (has been written at least once in history) then i'd say go for it, it has a nice ring to it. And yeah, blēo is the plural i believe. Cynn is the same plural as singular (just as in "deer"). — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 07:37, 17 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

+ I have no clue about paint as a noun, couldnt find it. But as a verb, i found oferhīƿian and fæȝan. So perhaps just form one of those two into a noun.

Countless verbs meaning "to paint" and I can't put my finger on a single noun "paint".

For "purple", try weolocreād (or wurmreād) or basu

- or bleō-reād or corwurma

- or godwebben (cloth only), or some others of that ilk.

Does it help to add that it depends on the colour and context?

Hogweard 23:13, 17 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that should help me a bit everyone. And no, Wōdenhelm, hǣwenrēad is not historical... sorry. Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 07:53, 18 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Basu! Now I remember that one haha. I hardly use colors for anything in OE really. Go with that'n. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 10:00, 18 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

University and College

There were perhaps two known universities before 1066; Constantinople and Paris. I can see neither named in Englisc. Leorninghus and larhus (which have appeared in these pages) mean "school". The School of the English in Rome was Angelcynnes scole.

"College" is surely framscipe.

For "university", direct translation seems a bit artificial but would bring the word close to Eormenfēolagascipe which is perhaps stretching it too far.

In Welsh a university is a "prifysgol", which means "heafodlarhus". We could adopt hēafodlārhūs.

Hogweard 19:42, 18 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

However, a university is more than a building. Oxford and Cambridge have some 50 hūs each! Also having put college as framscipe (which is glossed collegium), the members of a college (in Oxford and Cambridge anyway) are "fellows", suggesting fēolagascipe, but is that a genuine word found in OE, and does it fit?

Hogweard 21:07, 19 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Word for monotheism

I'm using āngodlicnes for monotheism in the article on angels. Anyone object? Also, where is there a forum here? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 06:12, 20 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Never mind; it would be better to use āngodgelēafa because:

If āngolicnes is monotheism

Then āngodlic is monotheistic

And godlic is theistic

But it's not; it means god-like.

Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 08:05, 20 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

But wouldnt the belief in angels, demons, the god called Satan, as well as a trinity of gods, defy the very notion of monotheism? Then there's the catholic deification of mary and other figures... 172.129.37.232 12:48, 20 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

We do not need a word for "monotheism". This mania for having a single word for every philosophical concept is relatively recent (only the last 600 years or so).

If you want to say that someone holds to "monotheism" just say "He trēwð / gelēafð ānne god" or some such. Read the sentence, not each individual word.

As to the other point, I will never defend Romish hagiolatry, but angels are not gods; all just created beings like you and I. If we think everything beyond our ken is a "god" we'd be like those South Pacific islanders who worship radios and aeroplanes. Still, that's off the point

Hogweard 20:40, 20 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Aye, sir! point taken. Also, I have found that there are two words for the new testament floating around. I believe one of them (nīwu gecȳþnes) to be non-historical (could someone please verify that for me). And I know the other to be historical (nīw ǣ). If nīwu gecȳþnes is indeed not historical, then could someone please move the article to nīw ǣ (used by Ælfric, just so you know)? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 01:33, 21 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Only problem I see with that, would be that it would then be a bit too ambiguous from describing a "new religion," such as Wicca, or even the Mormonism sect of Christianity. For example, I've rendered nīƿhǣðenscipe for neo-paganism. It's just not always possible to render all concepts using an incomplete vocabulary. It's very possible that nīƿ ǣ was simply rendered back then with no regard to other (and native) beliefs, as christians always seem to do. You can render it into a single word if you want to, as long as the word doesnt seem awkward or "trying too hard." So long as it fits in with the flow of words, then it's fine by me either way, although I feel that this wiki would benefit from having more diverse and interesting topics, as opposed to just those which have been beaten into the ground. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 11:35, 21 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Don't worry, I've discovered that Ælfric used Nīw Gecȳþnes too! Reading the original documents certainly helps to get a feel for Old English... Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 20:20, 21 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Ǣ is not "religion" as such nor "testament" distinctly; it means "law". That makes perfect sense in Ælfric's preface; "the Old Law" is the Old Testament as it encapsulates the Law of Moses.

Ǣfæstness appears for religion elsewhere, I believe.

Hogweard 23:06, 14 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Name for Yahweh

What should the Old English spelling of this be? In modern day it is usually spelt Yahweh because the two h's are silent in both Hebrew and English, but not so in Old English. Nonetheless, I am currently using Iahweh. Any thoughts on the matter? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 05:33, 22 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

OE Fiction Wiki Started...

I've started the OE fiction wiki, [2]. I certainly would like help... (That's kinda the reason I started it: so that lots of people would read and write in the Old English language)

Gōdne dæg! (Hopie ic, þæt ic þec þǣr tōweardlīce sēo!)

Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 03:34, 23 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Wordlicness?

Hey, just asking what a wordlicness is (I saw it in the article called sweord). Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 03:31, 29 Hrēþmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

You misread ƿeorþlicnes, "importance" — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 06:23, 14 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

A Proposal

I propose that a perminant link to the tutorial to Old English be put on this talk page. Anyone think likewise? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 06:42, 10 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

I, for one, agree with that. --ᛟᛗᚾᛁᛈᛇᛞᛁᛊᛏᚨ 09:53, 10 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Right, well, since no one else protests, I will do so. Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 02:30, 14 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Could someone proofread this, please?

Hi, could someone please proofread this on Wikimedia, which I have translated from Modern English; here's the original in ME: here. Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 05:57, 16 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Layout of the top page

A few comments:

• 1. The text is tiny.
• 2. Some of the text appears as boxes, but there is no link to a page where you can download the right font. There isn't even a mention of the possibility of fonts not displaying correctly.
• 3. "Most well-known" is wrong. Use "best-known." (Not that any of that should be in modern English, but since it's there, you may as well do it right.) Madler 12:52, 16 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

And a few responses: 1: So what. 2: Is adding a font link necessary for an English speaker when visiting a Korean page, for instance? 3: I'd suggest you read up on Appalachian English before you go telling people how to speak. Your cultural imperialism is unwelcome here. Furthermore it was specifically requested that a note in Modern English be placed on the main page.

Nice responses. I can see this Wikipedia is going to be a great success. Madler 22:51, 17 Ēastermōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

It is. we've got people working on this wiki every single day.

+ I'll fix point 2, but point 1 is irrelevant, and point 3 was uncalled for.

A year on, and what do we have? Tiny text, no link or mention of anything font-related, and mellifluous Appalachian phrasings all still in place. Should I have expected any less, judging from the snide (and therefore obviously) unsigned response I got? Madler 13:59, 24 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

1. Tiny text, because it is but a mere footnote to English-speakers. This page is not a tourist attraction.
2. Junicode is indeed listed, addressed to us Ænglisc-speakers; the only audience who really needs to be concerned with it.
3. Appalachian speech is just as legitimate as any other. If the English Wikipedia cannot agree upon the British/American schism, then attempts at standardization are foolhardy here as well. Besides, your quips against the dialect are but prejudiced nitpicking, and thus invalid. Please do not instigate our users anymore.

What a joke. Madler 19:30, 24 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Dang goodness, you could just take it graciously and have left it at your post a year ago - he did heed one of your suggestions. Out of interest, what is "correct English"? Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 02:21, 25 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

I vehemently agree with the OP.

1, The text should be written larger. Standard font size for proper reading is known to be approximately 12 points. That is not 12 points.

2, Whether or not you only expect people who already have the fonts to be here does not mean you should bias the page against others. That goes against the Wikipedia spirit.

3, Best-known is correct English -- dialect English is not correct in any major, standard English dialect (American or Commonwealth). I can't write "G'day, Bloke" even if it's common in one region. It's not linguistic imperialism -- it's standardization of language, and Appalachian dialectal English is rather riddled with poor grammar and odd conjugations of verbs. The fact that you vehemently refuse to change it seems more that you are trying to make a point that Appalachian is somehow 'better' than being reasonable. Ic finde thaet yfel. Antman 08:54, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

-addendum-

Also, not entirely sure why you don't sign your edits, User:Wōdenhelm, even if you are an admin (which I am assuming you are judging by your attitude). No one was being rude in this up until you were -- you attacked him because he pointed out flaws that you disagreed with without allowing proper discourse or community interaction. When either of two styles is acceptable, it is inappropriate for an editor to change an article from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so. So, can I rewrite large parts of EN.WIKI into Texan English so it's full of "I tell you what" and "ain't"? As far as I know, "ain't" is rather common in Appalachian English, but I wouldn't suggest you use it -- it is incorrect. Appalachian English is a dialect, but it's not a national dialect, and the Usage Guide allows -national- dialects -- Standard American, Standard Commonwealth. "Most Well-Known", although correct in the Appalachian dialect, is not correct English. It sounds wrong to -any- other speaker of English, whereas "Best-known" will sound correct to virtually all speakers. Antman 09:05, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Am I missing something? In those two bare sentences of Modern English at the top, what is specifically dialectical, whether Appalachian, Texan, Scouse or Geordie? Is there another argument going on elsewhere? Hogweard 13:38, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

One single person requested a note in English about our language here. If my translation is that big a deal, I'll just remove it, as there will be no further conflict with outside forces about something which no longer exists, so that peace can return. And, Hogweard, hīe cƿǣdon þæt mīn "most well-known" unriht is. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 17:45, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Hit is unriht. "Best-known" weordth betera and weordth riht mara than "most well-known" wesan. Is it that difficult to change it to the universally accepted form "best-known"? Antman 20:48, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

1. The fact that you vehemently refuse to change it seems more that you are trying to make a point that Appalachian is somehow 'better' than being reasonable. Not at all, just didnt care for the approach. Too rude.
2. poor grammar and odd conjugations You fail to recognize that "standardization" is artificial, and your choice of words are rude to me. Appalachians constantly face discrimination and ridicule, and you should understand that when you go atellin me that "my speech is wrong" or whatever. Yotta approach that more easily.
3. Again, it was just a simple little note that some random person in the past had asked for. I feel that the fact that folks are being more hell-bent on grammar, than the issue of character legibility, really says something. But I'll go ahead and alter the entire thing, on the assumption that you do indeed plan on contributing, and arent simply being a bossy outside force who will just disappear once they get their way. Will you be contributing?

— ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 21:25, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC) + (Basically, I dont like the bickering, but I'm not a passive person. I see that you speak OE, which is good, but we're butting heads over something superbly trivial, which is bad. As long as you plan to contribute, then I'll be happy to remove the source of our conflict. But if you're just stepping in to act like a bull in a china shop, and plan to just leave once you get what you wanted, then it stays. Will you contribute?) — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 21:54, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Suggestions, please

I just wrote a short (very short) article on the Maori language (Māorisc sprǣc), and for the family classifications needed to use Malaya, but I'm not sure what I should do about the y in the middle, because I know it did not represent a consonant sound in OE. Currently I'm writing it as Malagoisc. Anyone have any better suggestions? Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 04:46, 22 Sēremōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Sandbox - vanished edit tools

Something has happened to the edit tools. The box below the sandbox allowing one add þ, ð, æ and any letter with a macron is no longer there.

Can we get it back?

Hogweard 02:23, 1 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Yeah you're right. Only a site admin is able to alter those. So I'm sure you know whom to go after for that. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 19:12, 1 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Ack, Ic hæbbe gebrocen "á, é, í, ó, ú, ý" tó langum stafum for þám bútan, sóþlíce, trametnamum (ic móst gelícan and límettam oferstaflicu rihttacnu). Hopie, þæt hí eftcumen sóna!

Ack, I have been using "á, é, í, ó, ú, ý" for long letters because of that, excluding, of course, page titles (I had to copy and paste ;over-etter-like straight-tokens (macrons)). I hope that they come back soon! Gegréte ic thec on míne brúcendsíde 05:38, 3 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

For straight compositions, write in MS Word or equivalent and copy and paste the text in. I long ago wrote a series of autocorrects, so that, for example a"# => ä, ao# => å and of course a-# => ā.

Similarly th#, dh#, ae# and so forth, and autocorrects for þæt, þæm, and many others.

I think the missing edit tools are the result of a deeper problem caused by an "improvement" in Wikipedia as a whole: [3]. It sounds too technical to me.

Hogweard 01:08, 4 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

It'd be easier to create your own custom keyboard layout. Just google that bolded text and see what tools you find. It's what I did, sure beats having to stop and click buttons. Before making one, think about what you'd want to press naturally in order to bring those characters up. Me, ALT + a, for instance, brings up the macron, then I can type any vowel to place under it. My ALT + y brings up ȝ, and so forth. (I put that there based on pronunciation). — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 03:41, 4 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Swíþe gód... Þonce éow eallum... Ic mót brúcan þás orþancas. Áwendung: Very good... Thanks... I must use these ideas. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 01:18, 6 Mǣdmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Featured Articles

While most pages are rather short, some of them are length and well-done. I'd say it's about time for us to start implementing some Fulgōd ȝeƿritu. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 06:47, 20 Wēodmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Bend? Hlenċe!

• http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=link
• http://www.u.arizona.edu/~ctb/wordhord.html

Sum ƿordcƿidas on þǣre Arizona.edu sīde bēoþ fremde oþþe tō miċel, ac mē þyncþ hlenċe gōd. Brūcaþ ƿē hīe. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 08:16, 28 Wēodmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Hit is gód word, ac "bend" is ǣr gebrocen, and ic ðence, ðæt hit swíðe heofig ðing is, tó forbrúcenne níwe word tó "link"e. Gíet, þence ic, ic sceal hlence brúcan... Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 02:57, 27 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Bēo Beald. Brūc hlenċe. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 02:11, 28 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Anglicization of Modern Country Names

Englisc's wordhoard, although, for an ancient language, is considerably large, yet, obviously, lacks names for many modern countries (for obvious reasons). Obviously, too, a neologism will not always suffice for such countries (such as "Austrlaia"); however, there is always the issue of Anglicization of such words. For example, under Englisc's standard inventory of diphthongs, Australia should be "Ēastralea". So, how about it?

Also, this being relevant to the "fréo" in "séo fréo wísdómbóc", I am pretty sure that Englisc "fréo" was not meant to mean "without cost", but, rather, "liberated, freed, etc". I think "uncéap" would be a better option of the kind of free intended there. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan!

You might be right on freo, but would brōd be better?

On country names, there is precedent to follow. Familiar countries had familiar names using Englisc forms; Denemearc, Francland, Speonland, Wendelsæ and so forth. Texts referring to more distant lands use the name from the source, usually Latin or Greek; Sardinia, Sicilia, Cyclades, Roðos. There is no attempt there to squeeze these into an English sound. On occasion there is a varient; Mæcedonia sometimes instead of Macedonia, Gaðes for Gades, but this is minor and rare. The authentic usage is following the source.

We cannot say "pronounce the Latin name and then write it the way the Englecynn would write that sound", because we do not know how Latin was pronounced (in any given age), and the Bōclǣden these are based on is a written not spoken language.

The Latin-derived -ia names are feminine and take -ie in oblique cases.

Australia is from the Latin "Terra Australis Incognita" ("Þæt Ungecnawane Sūþerne Land").

Hogweard 15:28, 27 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

About the free/costless thing, the intended meaning is actually "freedom" (owing to the fact that it's a wiki). I've read it somewhere on the Mediawiki site, relating to the process of creating new language wiki page translations. So it's currently correct as it is. Except for the use of the non-existent W thing. Relating to modern names... just use personal judgement. That's about the best we can do. Perhaps also offer alternative terms in the article lead. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 02:17, 28 Hāligmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

How to say "aim"?

I can't find it anywhere in the B & T computer dictionary... I suggest "(rihte) æt-scēawian", however, one does not necessarily have to look at something to aim... So that doesn't seem fully adequate. Perhaps "(rihte) æt-cēosan"? I need some creative input here, bidde ēow... Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 03:54, 11 Winterfylleþ 2009 (UTC)

"Aim" in what sense?

• Noun with literal meaning "I raised my bow and my aim was true" (sige, syge)
• Verb with literal meaning ("I aimed my dart") (lælian)
• Noun meaning target (aiming mark): (myrecels)
• Noun meaning "intention" (atihting)
• Verb meaning "strive towards" (hogian (intrans.), rōmian (trans.), sēcan, tilian)

That is a selection anyway.

Hogweard 19:59, 11 Winterfylleþ 2009 (UTC)

I was meaning the literal verb and noun. I looked up your suggested "sige" and "lælian". It said "sige" meant victory (I knew that, but I'd forgotten) and "lǣlian" meant either to hurl or to be beaten black and blue. So no go according to B&T... Perhaps "riht macian (tō)" (or "rihtan (tō)" after German "richten auf") would do for "to aim (at)" (v.) and "rihtness" would do for "aim" (accuracy). Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 02:57, 12 Winterfylleþ 2009 (UTC)

Small request

Hello! I am a Polish wikipedian and I would like to ask you for your help - writing a new article about former Polish President who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983 – Lech Wałęsa. I have looked for his biography in your Wikipedia but without success. Polish Wikipedians will be grateful for your help. Thank you so much in advance! PS you can find the English version of the article here. Best wishes from Poland, Patrol110 09:09, 13 Blōtmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Sysop request

Hi, just a note that I have requested temporary admin access on this project to deal with obvious vandalism. Regards, Juliancolton 22:10, 8 Gēolmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Anglo-Saxon R

I've read variously about Anglo-Saxon r that: It was only ever pronounced as an alveolar approximant (like AmE r) before another consonant; It was trilled word-initially but liquid elsewhere; It was always trilled; We have no evidence as to it's exact pronunciation among the rhotic consonants.

Could anyone clarify, bidde ðē? Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 03:13, 13 Gēolmōnaþ 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it depends on the dialect. There is a different pronunciation in Scots from Devonian English, both enthusuaistic preservers of old forms. I'm pretty sure no Henry Higgins of the times wrote the exact phonemes down from each shire. There are many times when I feel the tape recorder was invented a thousand years too late. Hogweard 19:36, 15 Se Æfterra Gēola 2010 (UTC)

Hu secge ic

Hey, could some more people regularly check such pages as hu secge ic and niwlicu word teohhunga, because I really am not getting any input, no-no's, or go-aheads from anyone... And that kinda cripples my amount of writing (about modern things, at least) (my amount of writing is small, anyway, but it could be more). Thanks. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 04:32, 15 Se Æfterra Gēola 2010 (UTC)

Aye, but you're so good at it there's rarely any more to say. When I read your edits on Hu secge ic I generally think "right-o, well that one's sorted out then". The [[Gesprec:Ƿicipǣdia:Nīƿlicu ƿord teohhunga|Niwlicu word]] one is more "interesting" with tussles from time to time but, as you say, well worth it for the mind-work and the new things one learns. Hogweard 23:09, 15 Se Æfterra Gēola 2010 (UTC)

Ah, well, thanks for the encouragement. I just feel that I shouldn't be using words that are purely personal inventions without any outside recognition on a site like Wikipedia - especially since I have put words up in the past which, looking back, I can see weren't that relevant (and who wants an irrelevant word being taken as a standard?), or words which were not well thought out (e.g. wrote a stub article on the "Woruld wīde webb", which should have been "Woruldwīde webb" or "Worulde wīde webb", and speaking of that - could you or someone else please change the name of that particular stub to one of the two later names?). I am glad to see that some of the (relevant) words which I put on the Hu secge Ic page actually have articles (thanks to various user - including you). Also, would anyone mind if I did an almost total clean-up of the Hu secge Ic page so that that the format used is more regular (e.g. always Modern - Old English, since it is for finding out how to say something, not what something means and some other minor points such as how declension class and gender are indicated)? Thanks for reading. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 03:23, 17 Se Æfterra Gēola 2010 (UTC)

Translation assistance

I wanna make an article for List of mammals displaying homosexual behavior, but the title is a bit tricky. It might not be exact nor a smooth translation, but I's thinking something like Ȝetalu sycedēora mid ƿerlufe. Suggestions are good. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 17:04, 5 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Har, har. Oh well... I might as well point out that that can only be exclusively male. However, since you are asking for suggestions, might I suggest something with "āgen-gecund" (or "ilc-gecund") in it? It seems more general. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 05:04, 6 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, Wiktionary does have Faroese: samkyndur (fo). Good suggestion, thanks. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 15:43, 6 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

"Black page" vandal

Be on the look out for a black page vandal. See this version of the catte page, done by means of the inserted HTML coding, as seen here. On that black page, a solid layer of coloring is added over the text, thus there is no text to highlight, therefore no links to click, in order to edit the page. You'll need to do so through your browser's address bar. Example, see this link:

http://ang.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Catte&action=edit

On the title=Catte segment, naturally, just type up whatever the article name is. As long as you have a modern browser (Firefox, Chrome, Opera, Safari), then you should be able to manage for an article with Latin Extended-B characters (ǣ, etc). — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 22:51, 23 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

On mine the tabs at the top were still visible, so clicking on ādihtan þisne tramet will let you in. The page blacking was from a line sneaked in at the end (which I cannot quote or it would black this page too), beginning "div style". Hogweard 13:44, 24 Solmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Tictator

Þær is on þissum wici þæt word "tictator", eac "tictatorscipe". For hwon <t> and ne <d>? Hæfþ þæt word stær in þǣre spræce?--90.197.236.213 22:56, 4 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Soþlice hæfþ þæt word stær on Englisce (þu scoldest "Bosworth and Toller" on spearcletellan niman). Ac Ic þence þæt "dihtere" betere is for þæm þe hit Engliscre is. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 23:54, 4 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Ic þancie þec.--90.197.236.213 12:57, 5 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Citing sources

Just a small reminder, dont forget to cite your various sources. If you're merely translating existing article versions, little more than a simple copy/paste from those articles is needed. It's more important to cite facts if you're writing an article in your own words (well both are important, but yall get what I'm saying). Just try to keep that in mind. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 08:41, 15 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Hmm... Yes, I am guilty. I guess I focus more on the doing than the backing - a fault indeed on a project like Wikipedia... Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 03:37, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Yeah it's easy to forget, but we should still do so, to keep our credibility. (dont forget that people can still come back and read our work 50 years from now). — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 03:53, 25 Hrēþmōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Wuton glædian for 2,000

Nu on þisre Wicipædia sind tu þusend gewrita - glædie we forswiðe! Beon geworht giet manig gewritu, and helpien þæm giet manige menn. Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 01:43, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Cynerīce or rīce?

What exactly is the difference between these words? At first I though it might be declension, but there is an inconsistency with their use. I recently changed rīce to Cynerīce in the Norþweg article to be consistent with the "ȝƿ" version and Swēoland, which is also a kingdom. However, the Modern English Wikipedia gives "Westseaxna rīce" for the Kingdom of Wessex (which, curiously enough, does not have an article here yet). Hayden120 06:51, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Hogweard has done all the various nations and countries, and I believe he's using cȳnerīċe for republic, although I'm not 100% on that. Ask him, he should be able to iron that out. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 07:13, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Original texts use just rīce because everywhere, surely, had a king or eorl. This bizarre, unnatural concept of a republic does not feature.

Rīce is any realm. (We still say "bishopric" for a diocese.) A kingdom specifically is a cynerīce. The names of kingdoms need not have such refinement. Beware though that while one might write Norþweg þæt rīce or Norrena rīce, I doubt that Norþweg-rīce or anything like it would every appear.

The practice on ang:WP has been to use cynewīse for "republic. It is an authentic word for the res publica concept as I understand it, but I have not read the texts where is appears.

As cynewīse means a commonwealth, I found I wrote of Australia Cynewīse for the Commonwealth of Australia, which is a kingdom, and Þeodacynewīse for the Commonwealth!

Perhaps we collectively ought to list the original texts that put all these words into their context in use. (There is the Gemotstow for that sort of thing of course...)

Hogweard 12:51, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I see. It appears that rīce and cynerīce are comparable to the German words Reich and Königreich. Hayden120 13:14, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Nȳdƿeorc (tasks)

Just a few tasks we should work on doing. Most of these involve revising text throughout the wiki.

• (At your leisure,) change ūtanƿeard bendas to ūtanƿeard hlenċan.
• Change all instances of Flocc:Ǣ to Flocc:Ȝelēafan (as other Germanic tongues seem to use their version of ȝelēafa). I'll take care of the interwiki. Done
• Add interwiki language links to articles which may not yet have them, as we come across them.
• At some point, do a Search for any neologism you know you've used before, and compare them with other uses, make sure they all make sense and are in line with the NWT choices we've decided upon. (basically, update those)
• Search for older stub articles from years ago, and expand them into something better, such as what was done with Fiscoþ. Otherwise if there are several articles of a related topic, consider making a single article for them all, as this is more feasible to do.

Add more, by whatever yall can think of — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 10:53, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

There are a few important articles that are missing, if anyone feels like writing: Anglo-Saxons, Wessex, and Earth (with titles in OE, obviously). Hayden120 11:28, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Huh. Yeah, you're right, even Gothic has Wessex. Such shame/irony. — ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ 11:36, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

Þēodstefn

In the infobox for Australia, there is a section called "Þēodstefn". Is this the adjective for anything relating to the country (I am assuming by the -isc ending), or the demonym? Or is there no difference between the two? For example, how would you say, "I am an Australian"? Perhaps if demonyms are indeed different from the adjectival form, they could also be added to the country articles. Hayden120 13:27, 6 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)

The word means "stock (e.g. group) of people". To say that one was Australian, probably the safest bet would be to say "Ic eom Australisc mann/wīf". Willcume ic þec on míne brúcendsídan! 07:52, 7 Ēastermōnaþ 2010 (UTC)